020 Personal Perspectives on Vision Loss with Jessie Wolinsky
I’m so pleased to welcome Jessie Wolinsky to the show, a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling who has been living with retinitis pigmentosa since she was seven years old. After losing her driver’s license and facing legal blindness at age 26, Jessie navigated a profound journey through depression and identity loss to emerge as a powerful advocate and future mental health clinician. Today, we’re exploring her personal evolution from viewing her diagnosis as a "death sentence" to finding autonomy through mobility tools and movement. Jessie’s story is a masterclass in reclaiming your narrative and building confidence from the ground up.
The Muscle of Confidence and the Art of Occupying Space
As a psychotherapist who works daily with the low-vision community, I often hear from clients who feel they are standing on a precipice. The ground beneath them—the vision they relied on, the future they envisioned—has started to give way. In my recent conversation with Jessie Wolinsky, she described this sensation as a "rug pull," a visceral image of how a diagnosis of retinitis pigmentosa (RP) can upend a young person’s sense of self. Sitting across from her (virtually, from Atlanta to San Francisco), I was struck by the clarity and hard-won wisdom she brought to the table. Jessie isn't just someone living with vision loss; she is a future clinician who has looked into the mirror of her own despair and decided to break the frame.
One of the most poignant parts of our discussion centered on the intersection of genetics, disability, and chronic depression. Jessie was candid about her struggles with self-injury and the moment of "violent assault" against her own reflection when the weight of "Why me?" became too much to bear. As a therapist, I know that grief is a natural human process, but depression is a different beast—one that requires tools and support to navigate. Jessie credits her early entry into therapy with helping her dismantle the narrative that she was "not worthy". It is this lived experience that is now driving her toward her own career in mental health, a move I welcome with open arms because we desperately need more providers who truly understand the "othered" feeling of disability.
We also spent time deconstructing the "spectacle" of the white cane. Jessie’s initial resistance to the cane is a story I hear often. For many, the cane feels like an outward signal of vulnerability, especially in a world that doesn't always feel safe. But Jessie’s reframe was brilliant: she realized she was living her life for the comfort of others, staying on her couch to avoid being "seen" as blind. When she finally embraced cane training, she didn't just find her way to the grocery store; she found her way back to herself. She reclaimed her autonomy. As we discussed, for every "bad actor" who might see the cane as a sign of weakness, there are thousands of neighbors and bus drivers who become part of a community safety net when we choose to occupy space.
What I want my readers and clients to take away from Jessie’s story is her definition of confidence. It isn't a gift you are born with; it is a muscle you build. It involves the "non-negotiable" act of leaving the house every day, even when the low-friction option is to stay isolated. It involves choosing "clean-burning" empathy over the exhaustion of anger when a stranger treats you like an object rather than a human.
Jessie reminded me that while we cannot control the hand we are dealt, we are the conscious creators of how we play it. Whether you are struggling with the stigma of a mobility aid or the heavy fog of depression, know that change is possible. You deserve to occupy space in this world, and you deserve a life designed by you, for you.
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In this episode of inSight Out, host Matthew Reeves sits down with Jessie Wolinsky, a clinical mental health grad student and long-time advocate with the Foundation Fighting Blindness. Jessie shares a raw and deeply relatable account of her life with retinitis pigmentosa (RP), focusing on the pivotal moments of her adolescence when her vision loss felt like a total "rug pull" on her future. She discusses the intersection of disability and mental health, detailing her personal battle with chronic depression and the traumatic moments that eventually led her to seek the transformative power of therapy.
Listeners will gain insight into the practical and emotional hurdles of adopting mobility aids. Jessie speaks candidly about her initial resistance to using a white cane, fearing the stigma and perceived vulnerability it might signal to the world. She explains how she moved past those fears to reclaim her autonomy, eventually finding that the cane didn't just help her get from point A to point B physically, but also helped her move from a place of shattered confidence to one of self-assured independence.
Finally, the conversation turns toward the importance of "occupying space" and the clean burn of empathy over anger when dealing with societal ignorance. Jessie offers a powerful message of hope for anyone early in their vision loss journey, emphasizing that confidence is not an innate gift but a cultivated practice. Whether you are struggling with a new diagnosis or looking for ways to deepen your own adjustment, Jessie’s perspective provides a roadmap for living a life of design rather than one defined by external messages.
Topics Covered: Retinitis pigmentosa, adolescent diagnosis, depression and vision loss, self-harm and trauma, therapy for disability adjustment, the white cane and stigma, reclaiming autonomy, situational awareness and safety, self-advocacy in public spaces, the fuel of empathy, building confidence as a muscle, pursuing a career in mental health.
ABOUT THE PODCAST
inSight Out is your podcast home for living well with vision loss. Host Matthew Reeves (LPC CRC NCC) is a legally-blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor specializing in helping people thrive while living with disability. Matthew is licensed in Georgia and is a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor.
Please be sure to subscribe to catch every episode. And remember to share the show with others in the blind and low-vision community!
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©Integral Mental Health Services, LLC
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The following transcript is AI generated and likely contains errors.
020 Personal Perspectives on Vision Loss with Jessie Wolinsky
COLD OPEN
[00:00:00]
Jessie Wolinsky: you can at any point in your life say, "Hey, this doesn't align with me. This is not who I wanna be. This is not how I wanna feel. This is not what I wanna think." And you can change that. Even if it doesn't feel like that change is so possible, it, it really is. um, yeah, you can't control how you feel all the time, but you can control how you respond to it.
INTRO
Matthew Reeves: You're listening to Insight Out a podcast about living well with low vision. Maybe you're feeling confused, scared, isolated, or disheartened about a recent vision loss diagnosis, or maybe you've been managing your vision loss for a while and now you want to hear from others about how to continue growing and thriving. Insight Out is your supportive space to find healthy and impactful tools to build and maintain a truly rich and gratifying life with low or [00:01:00] no vision.
I'm Matthew Reeves. I'm a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor. I specialize in helping people adjust to disability through my practice, integral Mental Health Services in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm really glad you're listening.
Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and let others in the low vision community know about the podcast so the word can spread to those who might find it helpful. And now on with today's discussion.
TOPIC INTRO
Alex: this is placeholder for generic voiceover.
INTERVIEW
Matthew Reeves: all right, Jesse, thank you for joining me for this episode of Insight Out. Uh, you're in San Francisco, I'm in Atlanta, so I'm super thrilled that technology makes this possible.
Jessie Wolinsky: hub, as
Matthew Reeves: have retinitis pigmentosa, if I understand correctly. Can you tell us your story of vision loss? And, and,
Jessie Wolinsky: you were sent?
Matthew Reeves: uh, it feels like everybody's story of diagnosis and kind of that, that early part of the journey is, is so [00:02:00] compelling and different for everyone, so I'd love to hear your part, your, your perspective on it.
Jessie Wolinsky: like. Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for having me here, Matthew. I'm happy to be here, and I'm definitely happy to ramble on about my story. So I definitely have, um, retinitis pigmentosa. diagnosed when I was seven years old, I feel like at that time for me, um, I don't know, the diagnosis didn't really hit me as much as it did my parents. the diagnosis kind of really hit me a few years later. Luckily, at that time, even just in general, my RP is very stable. I'm 33 now. I went legally blind at 26, and very,
Matthew Reeves: [00:03:00] Yeah, you were, you were right on the precipice of all these things that every kid looks forward to, I think, or mo- at least most [00:04:00] kids, and then it, that, that was, that sounds like it was a real rug pull from out of nowhere for you.
Jessie Wolinsky: that every kid looks forward to, I think, or at least most kids, and then it-- that rug was pulled out from under you in one fell swoop out of nowhere. It was awful. Like, yeah, it, it's, it's-- it just felt like out of nowhere you, you see your future that you kind of thought you had and you imagine as a kid, and I'm gonna drive around with
Matthew Reeves: [00:05:00] So you were living...
Jessie Wolinsky: And this
Matthew Reeves: this was, you said adolescence, so I'm hearing like
Jessie Wolinsky: what age
Matthew Reeves: what, what age range are we talking about here?
Jessie Wolinsky: This, I was probably around 14, 15 years old.
Matthew Reeves: Okay. 14 or 15. Yeah, and you know, it...
Jessie Wolinsky: 15. Yeah. Yeah. And you
Matthew Reeves: You said something in there that struck me that, that it's, it wasn't just about...
Jessie Wolinsky: It
Matthew Reeves: mean, it was largely about what you were or were not going to be able to do, like the driving or the transportation and things like that, but,
Jessie Wolinsky: But then
Matthew Reeves: but it seems like it was deeper than that. It hit you harder than that.
Like who, like more in a identity, who am I? What, what is my life worth kind of way. Like, like that,
Jessie Wolinsky: It
Matthew Reeves: sounds like the more of a, an undercurrent there that I'm hearing. Is that right?
Jessie Wolinsky: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I kind of think that that is-- that's like the deeper issue because of course, you know, transportation can be figured out, and now as [00:06:00] an adult, I've realized, oh, I can get rides and, you know, Ubers, and there's so many other things.
But at that time, it felt like, how am I ever gonna do anything for myself, and what kind of person am I gonna be? How do I have a, a job? Like I really at that point, I had no knowledge blind or low vision people. All I ever knew was what was depicted in media and TV shows, and which we know is, uh,
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Jessie Wolinsky: not accurate whatsoever and does not depict us in the best light all.
Um, so truly to me, like being told at that age, especially like a young teen, you're such a-- such a formidable age, and you're just starting to create your own identity. And so I felt like I got this message about like who I was and what my life was going to be before I even had the opportunity to define that for myself.
And it really-- In my mind, it felt like a death sentence. It just kind of felt like, hey, any dream you
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: is not, is not gonna happen now. I'm
Matthew Reeves: I'm so sorry you went through that.
Jessie Wolinsky: Mm.
Matthew Reeves: [00:07:00] how did depression- Show up for you. It's different for different people. There are a lot of common themes, but it is different for everyone. What was it like for you?
Jessie Wolinsky: for you? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for asking that. It's definitely different for everyone. Um, for me, the way that it would manifest was very, uh, critical self-talk. So every single aspect
Matthew Reeves: [00:08:00] Yeah. D-
Jessie Wolinsky: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: here's a totally unfair question,
Jessie Wolinsky: 'cause you
Matthew Reeves: you have no way of knowing the answer to this, but I'm curious. Do you think that the, the tendency f- towards depression, do you tr- how much of that do you attribute to the vision loss versus do you think that might've been something you would've faced, uh, without the vision loss?
Do you, do you know? Do you have any, do you have any, any intuition on, on the connection there and how m- how big or how small that might be?
Jessie Wolinsky: maybe? Yes. Um, I do have like a little bit of insight. Like I, um, I'm adopted, number one, so I feel like a big, um, [00:09:00] thing genetically with my eyesight was always kind of like, I don't know how this came to be, so I kind of felt very othered in that sense with my adoptive family. I do know, I found out years later that depression and mental health concerns run in my birth mom's side of the family. So I do feel
Matthew Reeves: Okay.
Jessie Wolinsky: was prevalent, and
Matthew Reeves: Right
Jessie Wolinsky: like automatically you are upset about it, and it's this whole big detrimental thing. I think I had the disability and also the depression, and coupling that together at such a crucial age, um, was tricky for me. But yeah, I definitely think, um, kinda plays into each other.
But, but yeah, there's a lot of people that I know who [00:10:00] have vision loss who don't experience depression in that sense, or they might just experience hard feelings here and there, more like situational things. So it really is, um, it really is unique.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, I think, I think you're hitting on a real truth here that I've noticed in my practice that
Jessie Wolinsky: on that point too with your practice, in your practice that
Matthew Reeves: vision loss can be-- it can range in intensity in terms of the emotional impact, but it can hit in a few different ways. It can hit with, yes, depression, it can hit with trauma symptoms, uh, and it can hit almost always with,
Jessie Wolinsky: grief-
Matthew Reeves: which is not
Jessie Wolinsky: -which is not something that
Matthew Reeves: that we have-- It's not a problem to be solved.
That's something to simply experience as a human, as unpleasant as it is.
Jessie Wolinsky: have loss as,
Matthew Reeves: Uh, but the other two
Jessie Wolinsky: really can
Matthew Reeves: can be benefited by getting some help.
Jessie Wolinsky: help. Uh,
Matthew Reeves: Uh, it-- Those, those, you know, trauma and depression are things where we can, we can make our way out of that.
Jessie Wolinsky: that.
Uh, it's
Matthew Reeves: not a natural human condition. It's a human-- It's a natural response to, to, uh, circumstances or [00:11:00] genetics or things we don't even understand.
But-- So I'm not, not implying that there's a brokenness there, but it is something we can address, whereas grief is just a process we all go through, uh, as part of our natural state. So I'm, I'm really grateful for you shining a light on, on two of those anyway. Um, how did your parents respond to the depression and the symptoms of depression?
Jessie Wolinsky: of depression? I think, um, the depression, it definitely scared them. Um, they don't experience depression and haven't really experienced it in the way that I, I do, which is, um, very chronic.
And so it was, it was very terrifying for them to see their daughter in so much pain. And yeah, I, I would-- Like I said, I would self-injure. Um, this one vivid memory of me just like being so upset and like screaming at my mirror and saying, "Why me? Why me?" And I'm punching the mirror over and over again, and glass is flying, and it, it's just... That's such a memory that's so like em- [00:12:00] burned, burned in my brain, and I know was in theirs as well, of just like feeling helpless and how do I help my child? And it, it's just so painful to see someone going through so much and not knowing what to do to be able to help. And, um, you know, I'm so, so grateful that they encouraged me to get into therapy.
I've been seeing a therapist from a very young age, and I've, I've loved the process. I absolutely truly cannot like my therapists, um, and just the therapeutic process for me more, um, because it has just taught me so, so much and, and it's actually led me to becoming a grad student right now studying clinical mental health in the hopes of becoming a therapist to support this community just because of how much I've been supported.
And, um, I really, really just thank my parents so much for being able to get me in to see such great clinicians at such a young age.
Matthew Reeves: Absolutely. And I, for those who are [00:13:00] listening and not watching on YouTube, a big smile on my face when I hear of another person with a vision loss going, going into this field, 'cause there are not enough people doing this work.
Jessie Wolinsky: this work.
So
Matthew Reeves: So thank you.
Jessie Wolinsky: welcome you with open
Matthew Reeves: arms.
Jessie Wolinsky: definitely.
Matthew Reeves: that's really wonderful.
Jessie Wolinsky: Um, and, and my, my, so you said-- Well,
Matthew Reeves: what, what tools-- You said-- Well, gosh, two, two questions. Uh, I'll try and take them one at a time. Or one is more of an observation. Like, the depression led to that moment of, of anger and, and
Jessie Wolinsky: this is
Matthew Reeves: s- kind of that violent assault of the mirror, which sounds really dangerous. Um,
Jessie Wolinsky: Um, and,
Matthew Reeves: it, it, it strikes me like that, that vivid memory, that's a situation where the depression itself led to a behavior which was then traumatic,
Jessie Wolinsky: right?
Matthew Reeves: That moment
Jessie Wolinsky: That moment
Matthew Reeves: just became so visceral,
Jessie Wolinsky: uh, and
Matthew Reeves: and dangerous in its own right. And, and I'm not diagnosing here, but, but it, it sounds like that was a memory that maybe borders on the, on the traumatic all by itself. So, which can really seems like it could cause a spiral, which is how depression is so [00:14:00] often, um,
Jessie Wolinsky: um,
Matthew Reeves: described.
What tools
Jessie Wolinsky: from
Matthew Reeves: therapy or elsewhere,
Jessie Wolinsky: uh, were
Matthew Reeves: were helpful for you? You said you kind of deal with it differently now, even though it's a persistent condition. What, what has been helpful? I, I imagine a lot of people listening to this may be, um, grappling with depression and, you know, different tools will resonate differently with different people, of course.
But what, what, what was helpful for you?
Jessie Wolinsky: with depression.
But what were some things that you- Yes, definitely. I feel like for me, the first thing that comes to mind is exercise. Like, absolutely. I am such a big in yoga, in, you know, getting outside for a walk. Like any sort of somatic practice to just get you into your body has been so beneficial for me to get out of my head, and I can definitely get very overwhelmed by my thoughts.
And I think that's also a very common, common thing, um, with people with depression or just any kind of mental health struggles or just being a human. I feel like we spend a lot of time in our head. So to just get into my body, um, through meditation or like I said, yoga specifically, has just [00:15:00] been so, so helpful for me.
Um, you know, definitely I've, I've had SSRIs be beneficial, but that's definitely something like, of course, anyone should just be talking to their doctor specifically. Um, but yeah, I would say just getting, getting into my body, um, being able to journal, being able to get those thoughts out there. Um, definitely having a good therapist to talk to and to really be able to kind of notice my patterns when it comes to the narratives that I have and the one narrative that I had for a long time, which is like, um, that I'm not worthy and I'm not good enough, and that's been such a common one.
So I think therapy has been really beneficial for kind of breaking down that process and noticing when I have a certain thought. Um, and so yeah, I, I really think that those-- the combination of those things have just been so, so, so beneficial. Like, honestly, I cannot, I cannot credit exercise enough. If I just get on my mat or I move my body in some way, it just, it [00:16:00] feels like everything kinda lifts a little bit. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: It--
Jessie Wolinsky: And, uh,
Matthew Reeves: I'm thinking about how
Jessie Wolinsky: you're
Matthew Reeves: you're taking control of something so tangible with your body,
Jessie Wolinsky: and it's
Matthew Reeves: and it's also part of,
Jessie Wolinsky: you
Matthew Reeves: you know, your body which, which in terms of your eyes is also one of the things that I think a lot of people really feel betrayed by. Like, it's a way that my body has let me down.
My body's not functioning the way it's designed to.
Jessie Wolinsky: Um, so
Matthew Reeves: so you're kind of reclaiming, uh, that relationship with your body through
Jessie Wolinsky: relationship with your
Matthew Reeves: therapeutic practices. That sounds,
Jessie Wolinsky: retaining
Matthew Reeves: and reclaiming autonomy. Like I'm, if I,
Jessie Wolinsky: I, like
Matthew Reeves: if I instance, if I'm, if I'm going to move, I'm going to move. Like, and I have that capacity. I may not be able to see, but I can still move, right?
Claiming that control, I think that's really cool.
Jessie Wolinsky: want to go out, I want to go out. Like I have that capacity. I may, I may receive it. I can still go out. Reclaiming that control. I love that way of putting it.
I never even thought about it in those terms before, like taking automo- autonomy and, um, agency back over m- my body in that sense. But it, it feels so true, you know? Especially when I feel like walking outside on my own is something [00:17:00] I've had to kind of transition out of. Um,
Matthew Reeves: You,
Jessie Wolinsky: so having to find more ways to get active, like in my
Matthew Reeves: you
Jessie Wolinsky: and, um, just like adjusting to that.
But I love that reframe. That's absolutely amazing. I'm gonna
Matthew Reeves: mentioned getting
Jessie Wolinsky: me tell you.
Matthew Reeves: and one of the things that, that you and I talked about before we recorded was that you wanted to talk about, um, mobility aids and how they have been helpful, and that seems like a good segue. Can you talk about that?
Jessie Wolinsky: and the things that, that you had talked about before was that you wanted to talk about, um, mobility aids and how they have been helpful. That, that seems like a good segue. Can you talk about that? Yes. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I've always been like big on going on walks and hikes, and so I feel like having to adjust to my vision loss in that sense was really difficult, and I was so resistant to using a cane. I was just resistant about having anyone really know what was going on with my eyesight for a very long time. So I was like, "There's no way I am ever going to be walking outside with a cane to have everyone know that I am this way." Like it just was-- It-- [00:18:00] I wouldn't even consider it for a long time. And um, and then as I started, my vision was really, um, getting in the way of me getting to do the things I wanted to do, and I couldn't feel safe going on a hike or going just on a walk around the block.
And, and it kind of just hit me. I was like, "I am living my life for the comfort of other people and what they might think or might not think or whatever." And at the end of the day, I don't even think that people think about you that much. You know what I mean? Like I'm
Matthew Reeves: That's
Jessie Wolinsky: couch, not going out and doing whatever I want because this person's gonna see a blind person on a hike, and if they do, who cares?
And what-- Like I, I immediately took me being seen as a blind person as like a negative thing, and I'm gonna be judged for it, and people are gonna think less than, and I realize that's so much of my own narrative. So being able to start cane training and noticing the independence that I was able to have from that just also boosted my confidence.
And all of a sudden, I'm [00:19:00] I'm, I'm feeling so much better who I am as a person because I've like accepted this part of myself, and I'm figuring out how to make, make it work for me. And I don't know. I, I just finally, after a couple years of doing the cane training, I was just like, "This is, this is me, and this is who I am, and this cane gets me-" From A to B, and it helps me do all the things that I wanna do.
And now, like I travel, I go to the airport all the time by myself. I go to the grocery store all the time by myself, and I don't even think about it. And literally, if I didn't have that cane, I could not do it. And, and yeah, it does come with a lot of comments and confusion and things from the outside world, and people who are genuinely most of the time just curious. Um, but sometimes, you know, that can kinda get to me, and it can kinda be annoying. Sometimes I just wanna go to the coffee shop and get a latte and not like I'm a spectacle. But I, I kinda think that that's another thing I can just kinda throw away [00:20:00] sometimes and, um, just say, "Hey, I have to realign my focus," and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or what anyone's gonna say.
I need to get outside and live my life, period. And that's what the cane allows me to do. feel like I hear so many people just being so resistant about wanting to use the cane. That's why I'm like, "I know it's scary. I know it feels like a big deal," but like, oh my gosh, it's, it's so amazing. It's been my favorite tool.
Absolutely.
Matthew Reeves: And it really seems like in that story, y- the cane
Jessie Wolinsky: is
Matthew Reeves: literally helping you get from point A to point B
Jessie Wolinsky: B in
Matthew Reeves: in a safe way and opening up possibilities for your day and your travel and all of that.
Jessie Wolinsky: all of that.
Matthew Reeves: But
Jessie Wolinsky: you're
Matthew Reeves: you're also describing you went from point A to point B in the sense that you started at a place where other people had the power
Jessie Wolinsky: or
Matthew Reeves: and what other people or what you perceived other people thought of you
Jessie Wolinsky: had
Matthew Reeves: a lot of power and meant a lot.
Jessie Wolinsky: And
Matthew Reeves: And then the cane
Jessie Wolinsky: training and
Matthew Reeves: and getting used to that [00:21:00] ended up at a place of confidence where it's like, "No, what I think of me is the thing that matters." What a, what a journey,
Jessie Wolinsky: a- and
Matthew Reeves: two levels at the same time. What a journey that, that, that training, uh,
Jessie Wolinsky: on,
Matthew Reeves: Uh, I won't give credit to the cane 'cause that's just a tool.
But you-- the learning how to use the cane was your journey that took you from point A to point B in at least two different senses. That's really cool.
Jessie Wolinsky: Definitely. Yeah. It, it's so true, and it's, um... I, I really appreciate the way that you can like reframe things and the way that you're able to look at things in that way and, and it's so true because yeah, I feel like it's been-- It was one of the best things that I ever did for myself. Um, obviously just physically to be able to get around safely,
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Jessie Wolinsky: but just to really accept this part of myself, and I had to learn like, okay, I am not my blindness.
You know, I am not just this person with the cane. It helps me live my life so that I can do what I need to do. And, um, yeah, it's, it's been a blessing,
Matthew Reeves: How do [00:22:00] you... I've noticed something that's come up w- uh, both in my clients and, and others I've heard from that do this work, um, that the cane is often... One of the concerns people have about using a cane,
Jessie Wolinsky: especially if
Matthew Reeves: if they're in a city environment, and, uh, not to sound misogynistic, but especially a lot of women feel this way, that
Jessie Wolinsky: are afraid that
Matthew Reeves: it is, it is a signal of vulnerability, that, that, that using the cane is signals to
Jessie Wolinsky: bad
Matthew Reeves: actors
Jessie Wolinsky: that,
Matthew Reeves: that
Jessie Wolinsky: they
Matthew Reeves: might be able to harm you.
Um, what have you done to feel safe while using a cane, if anything?
Jessie Wolinsky: Yes. I, I'm really grateful that you bring up this topic because this-- it's true. It i- it is true. I do think that there... Like I live
Matthew Reeves: Right. [00:23:00] [00:24:00] Right.
Jessie Wolinsky: think that, um, that that's, that's a tricky thing. I wish I had a, a better answer. Uh, but, um, yeah, I think
Matthew Reeves: Well...
Jessie Wolinsky: certain tools, um, for me has been, been very helpful. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: I, um,
Jessie Wolinsky: I, I, I
Matthew Reeves: I like that we're talking about it because I think it normalizes the experience that any... If somebody is feeling like the cane
Jessie Wolinsky: is--
Matthew Reeves: I mean, when we have vision loss,
Jessie Wolinsky: like you
Matthew Reeves: you said, we, it, it becomes harder and harder with a prore- with a progressive condition or, you know,
Jessie Wolinsky: whatever
Matthew Reeves: to
Jessie Wolinsky: may be
Matthew Reeves: watch out for yourself.
Literally, it's about taking in the information, and the tool, the best tool we have for that is the one that's failing us.
Jessie Wolinsky: and
Matthew Reeves: And so we're... That, that is vulnerability on its own, and then you say, well, in order to overcome that, you've gotta use this- This other tool,
Jessie Wolinsky: tool, the cane,"
Matthew Reeves: which
Jessie Wolinsky: is a
Matthew Reeves: then is an outward signaling.
It's like a vulnerability instead of coming-- Instead of, of, uh, difficulty with taking in information, you're [00:25:00] now sending out information to a world that may not be safe. So it, it is-- it kind of doubles up on that sense of vulnerability, and if, if people are feeling that, I, I want them to know that that's a very normal feeling.
And the
Jessie Wolinsky: one
Matthew Reeves: solution to that is to find
Jessie Wolinsky: additional
Matthew Reeves: tools to kind of mitigate that risk, like you said, the alarm, being on the phone, uh,
Jessie Wolinsky: um,
Matthew Reeves: increase situational awareness in other ways, self-defense classes. Like, there are,
Jessie Wolinsky: that you
Matthew Reeves: there are other tools, the, the pepper spray. There are other tools to, to kind of reclaim that sense of safety.
Um, so, uh, I guess the most important thing is probably just to normalize it, so thank you for speaking to that.
Jessie Wolinsky: Yeah. And I really-- I also just wanna highlight what you said about like self-defense. I think that like anyone-- everyone should just be, you know, taking one of those classes. Um, and one thing that just comes to mind to, um, when I'm navigating like the, the city in that sense is like I just get very intentional about my route and my...
You know, I take the same street and the same thing. So a lot of times, [00:26:00] of course, there's a lot of people around, but a lot of times I will, come-- I will interact with the same people. You know, store owners who are outside of that store or like neighbors who go that-- down that certain route, and I kind of create a relationship with them.
So then I kind of have people that I have a good rapport with who are even kind of looking out for me in that sense, you know? And obvious- like, so just kind of, um, I feel like creating that predictability in my routine and my route has also just given me that peace of mind. You know, my bus driver on the two line always knows me and knows my name.
And so like I feel those little added, um, safety measures really, really do help, you know? Like, okay, people will notice like if something goes on with me or something
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I'm just gonna make up numbers here. I don't have data, but for every bad actor
Jessie Wolinsky: that
Matthew Reeves: that sees the cane as an opportunity to abuse you, there's probably 10,000 people who would say, "Oh my God, that woman with the cane is being assaulted. We, we-- Let's, let's, [00:27:00] let's help." Right? There's-- I mean, the, the ratio of good to bad is so enormous, um, that the cane...
Jessie Wolinsky: It's
Matthew Reeves: It's easy to only pay attention to how the cane makes us vulnerable, but maybe there are ways in which it also signals to,
Jessie Wolinsky: more
Matthew Reeves: to our fellow citizens and friends and neighbors and family that, like, we, we might need their help, uh, and that they might... You know, that, that's a, it's a signal in the,
Jessie Wolinsky: ability
Matthew Reeves: opposite direction, a signal of safety.
Jessie Wolinsky: more safety.
Definitely.
Matthew Reeves: so that's...
Jessie Wolinsky: And
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: like how kind a lot of people are, you know? And like, and just how willing people are to help and are to... You know, I, I think that, um, yeah, I'm reminded how most people are, are truly kind and trying to do right by others. So it's nice to remember that, you know?
Matthew Reeves: Absolutely. It's easy to forget, but nice to remember How has--
Jessie Wolinsky: I
Matthew Reeves: You mentioned going to the coffee shop and sometimes just not wanting to be the spectacle and, and whether it's the cane or any other signal of vision loss.
Jessie Wolinsky: less, uh, less-
Matthew Reeves: How has stigma,
Jessie Wolinsky: has that[00:28:00]
Matthew Reeves: impacted your journey, and how have you moved, again, from point A to point B in terms of how you address the stigma of vision loss?
Jessie Wolinsky: Yeah, I feel like stigma is just like, it's one of the biggest things that I deal with on a daily basis because even when I do believe like 90% of people are really sweet and kind, there's just like a, a general ignorance around disability, specifically around blindness, where people that I come in contact with, they're just like so surprised to see me and so like shocked to see a blind person in a coffee shop by themselves.
They like really don't know how to interact with me. Like, "Do you want me to read the menu to me? Do you, do you need me to show you to your chair?" Like, I-- they just-- And sometimes I'll get people who they just come up and pull my arm and, "Oh, come over here or go this or go..." You know what I mean? I'm just kind of like, whew, I have to constantly remind myself that like there is a certain stigma about blind people, and like these people really just don't know.
They're just not proper education [00:29:00] about the reality of living with a blinding condition or even just having a disability in general. Um, so I think that that's something that I deal with all the time when I will have to tell people, um, you know, um, I'll kind of-- kind of feel like I have to like teach people in my everyday life almost like how to interact with me or something.
And, um, like if they, if I'm at a restaurant, for example, and I'm-- they're taking me to my table, and they go to grab my arm, and like I'll just pull back, and I'll say, "Actually, do you mind if I grab your elbow?" Or, "Actually, I'm actually good in this light. I can just follow you." So it's a lot of like advocating for myself, which sometimes can be uncomfortable, but it's just kind of like something that we have to get used to doing because I don't wanna be pulled around the restaurant like a dog.
I don't think that's appropriate, and so I have to say like, "No, actually, I need to do it this
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: but it can be exhausting. Yeah. It's, it's a little bit exhausting sometimes. I'm tired, and I don't wanna have to educate [00:30:00] someone about how to interact with me in a respectful way. You know what I mean?
When I see other people, they're not getting these questions asked to them, or they're not getting, you know what I mean, this extra kind of a, attention. And, um, so yeah, I think sometimes I get a lot of-- I get frustrated by it, and I have to remember like these people just don't know. But, um, yeah, I, I feel like the
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: of what it means to be a
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Jessie Wolinsky: person, I feel it like all the time, um, because people seem to be
Matthew Reeves: I
Jessie Wolinsky: surprised they come,
Matthew Reeves: think
Jessie Wolinsky: come
Matthew Reeves: there's--
Jessie Wolinsky: contact with me in
Matthew Reeves: You're
Jessie Wolinsky: public setting when I'm alone.
They're like, "What do we do with this chick?"
Matthew Reeves: right because
Jessie Wolinsky: I think
Matthew Reeves: I think there's something fundamental about You know, which, what you're doing is saying, "I, I have to teach you,"
Jessie Wolinsky: third party
Matthew Reeves: stranger, "I have to teach you
Jessie Wolinsky: to
Matthew Reeves: how to treat me like a human."
Jessie Wolinsky: And
Matthew Reeves: And there's a message in there of like, "I'm not a dog, and I'm not, not an object, and you don't get to touch me without my consent."
Jessie Wolinsky: like,
Matthew Reeves: Like, there's all this, there's all these fundamental [00:31:00] things about how you treat a human that sometimes people, even with good intention, ju- it just evaporates out of their head, um, with
Jessie Wolinsky: and bad, um, with
Matthew Reeves: most oftentimes the best of intention. But still, you're still, whether it's good, well-intentioned or not, you're still being treated like something other than a human.
You're being treated like a disability.
Jessie Wolinsky: Um,
Matthew Reeves: so
Jessie Wolinsky: I,
Matthew Reeves: I, I get how exhausting that is because you can have two responses to that. You can get angry or you can get empathetic,
Jessie Wolinsky: Yes.
Matthew Reeves: empathy is,
Jessie Wolinsky: uh, the
Matthew Reeves: the way I like to think of it, I learned this from Hank Green online, uh, it, like we have different fuels, and
Jessie Wolinsky: multiple different
Matthew Reeves: different fuels can get us there.
They can propel our vehicle,
Jessie Wolinsky: our
Matthew Reeves: our metaphorical vehicle. The anger can get us where we need to go. In other words, we can get them to stop treating us that way,
Jessie Wolinsky: And so
Matthew Reeves: and so can the empathy, but some fuels burn a lot cleaner than others. Uh, and empathy burns much, much cleaner than anger does. They both get us there, but the, the empathy is still fuel that requires burning.
Like, it's [00:32:00] still exhausting to be empathetic.
Jessie Wolinsky: I
Matthew Reeves: It's healthier, but,
Jessie Wolinsky: exhausts
Matthew Reeves: So I really do, I can, uh,
Jessie Wolinsky: it doesn't
Matthew Reeves: I, I, as a therapist, and I think you'll experience this when you get into the clinical setting, uh, empathy is really good and really healthy, but it does not come free.
Jessie Wolinsky: nowhere. Definitely. And I
Matthew Reeves: you know that...
Jessie Wolinsky: can be easier to access for a lot of people.
It's usually the emotion that's like
Matthew Reeves: Oh, yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: because, yeah, I experience the
Matthew Reeves: And
Jessie Wolinsky: a
Matthew Reeves: that
Jessie Wolinsky: times a day where I'm like, "Oh gosh, that really actually didn't sit right with me, and that kind of pissed me off." And I have
Matthew Reeves: can be
Jessie Wolinsky: like access that empathy and say like, "They don't know. They might be trying to be helpful and don't exactly
Matthew Reeves: dangerous
Jessie Wolinsky: go about that."
Um, and yeah, exhausting was the
Matthew Reeves: too
Jessie Wolinsky: It can be very,
Matthew Reeves: Like staying, staying home, that can, that can start that,
Jessie Wolinsky: it's like, you know, I'll just make my coffee at home. Sometimes I, I can't deal with it and, um, which is also okay. You
Matthew Reeves: a seed [00:33:00] of the, a spiral of depression. So we have to be cautious about that because when we're blind, staying home is the low friction option by a lot.
Jessie Wolinsky: Always.
Matthew Reeves: And, and that c- that has, that also has costs.
Jessie Wolinsky: that's something I have to like remind myself every single day. That's something that I have to tell myself as someone with depression and also vision loss.
Like that's a non-negotiable for me. I have to go outside every day. I have to leave my apartment every day because I am far too inclined to sit on my couch and, and not engage with the outside world for these reasons. And then it just becomes scarier and harder and harder and kind of just goes into I don't want the outside world to define my life for me. So yeah, it might be a little clunky when I go out there, but I'm gonna do it because I have to. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Another reason why--
Jessie Wolinsky: another tool
Matthew Reeves: tool for fighting depression is,
Jessie Wolinsky: is
Matthew Reeves: is not just exercise outside, but just being out of your normal space,
Jessie Wolinsky: way. You
Matthew Reeves: and in the world and connected [00:34:00] with other people, even if you're not talking to them. You're just-- Occupying space in the world says
Jessie Wolinsky: As I
Matthew Reeves: there's a n- there's a message there that says, "I deserve to occupy space in the world."
That's a, that's a good thing to do. Um, so I think that's-- I, I'm, I'm really happy we hit on, hit on that as a tool for combating the,
Jessie Wolinsky: the,
Matthew Reeves: the isolation that comes with both vision loss and depression. So that's, that's really cool.
Jessie Wolinsky: That's a big
Matthew Reeves: You...
Jessie Wolinsky: might not always feel like doing it, but sometimes you just gotta do the thing. You gotta do it.
It's gonna
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah, you deserve to do what's healthy for you, even if you don't want to.
Jessie Wolinsky: Totally.
Matthew Reeves: you deserve it. Yeah. Yeah, do it anyway. Um,
Jessie Wolinsky: gonna
Matthew Reeves: not to say that this is a- about white-knuckling it. That's not too-- That's not terribly sustainable long term, but sometimes we need to white-knuckle in a, in a moment.
Jessie Wolinsky: That's
Matthew Reeves: That's fine.
We, we can do that. We can do hard things.
Jessie Wolinsky: definitely. It
Matthew Reeves: it seems like you've moved, um...
Jessie Wolinsky: like you've, um... You
Matthew Reeves: Well, you used this word earlier, you know, confidence, and you seem
Jessie Wolinsky: very
Matthew Reeves: confident, and you came from a place [00:35:00] of,
Jessie Wolinsky: you know,
Matthew Reeves: uh, really a shattered confidence.
Jessie Wolinsky: What is
Matthew Reeves: What is it-- What would you say to somebody who is early in the journey, um, of vision loss and, and they're
Jessie Wolinsky: and they're
Matthew Reeves: questioning whether confidence is something they'll ever be able to feel?
Jessie Wolinsky: Mm. Oh, such a good question. And I think I, I realized that for me, confidence, I always kind of thought growing up, 'cause I felt so the opposite of confident my whole life in like middle school and high school.
Um, and I, I would see people who had it, and I would see people who had confidence, and I thought, "Wow, they're so lucky. They just have this innate gift that I don't have." And I realized confidence is built. is absolutely something that I can cultivate, I can create, and I have done that over time.
But also, it's not anything that I have [00:36:00] felt 100% of the time. I think that, you know, you're never going to get to a point where like every single moment of every single day I'm feeling confident in myself and my abilities and like emotions ebb and flow, and you're g- not always gonna feel the same way. But for me, confidence is like, no matter what I'm feeling or no matter what occurs, I'm always gonna be able to rest down in that bed of confidence knowing that I can do it. I got myself. I have been through all of this stuff before, and I've carried myself through it. I've sought out help when I needed it. And yeah, it's just kind of like that idea of no matter how I'm feeling or no matter how hard it is, like I've made it through other things, so I can make it through this it is a practice. It is really not a place that I've landed at, and I'm like, "Oh, now I'm confident, and now I'm good, and I never have to work at it again."
I work at it every single day do that, like narrative in my head, that narrative [00:37:00] reframe of I have to get outside my house, and I have to go and do this, and I want to go and do this. It's not even a have to. I wanna feel good. I wanna feel confident and really just knowing that can trust myself. Um, but I just want people to know, like, it's not you're gonna feel 100% of the time, and that's okay.
It doesn't mean that, oh, if I'm having such a confident day today, and then tomorrow I don't feel that way, that I've regressed or something's wrong with me. It, it's, it's a combination. You know what I mean? But really, that confidence can be cultivated. It can be created. It is something-- It's a muscle. It's something you can grow stronger and stronger.
So anyone, whether or not you believe it, listening to this, if you really think, "Oh my gosh, I will never, ever be able to have any sort of sense of confidence," I promise, like it is something that can be built, and you just find the things that make you feel good and what you wanna engage more with in the world and, and then that confidence really does get built up over time.[00:38:00]
Matthew Reeves: I love that. What a
Jessie Wolinsky: What a
Matthew Reeves: spectacular answer to that question. Thank you so much. That was really beautifully articulated. Thank you so much.
Jessie Wolinsky: With that said,
Matthew Reeves: Has that... I- I know, I know you've had
Jessie Wolinsky: a
Matthew Reeves: a lot that has helped you get from point A to point B to that point of confidence. Therapy, it sounds like really good family support,
Jessie Wolinsky: you've had your family support,
Matthew Reeves: other things.
Um,
Jessie Wolinsky: Um,
Matthew Reeves: and now you're moving into the place of being a helper Going back to going to school and, and, and one day becoming a therapist. Can you talk about that decision a little bit? How,
Jessie Wolinsky: connected
Matthew Reeves: to vision loss is that? Uh, or how-- Or maybe not. Maybe it's not connected to vision loss at all. But can you talk about that decision and what you're hoping to get out of that decision?
Jessie Wolinsky: spontaneous, but can you talk about that decision to maybe take it on like this?
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. This is, um... I'm so excited to be like in grad school and to be exploring, um, this degree, like in clinical mental health counseling. I'm really, really excited about it. I, [00:39:00] I really honestly growing up, I like never thought that I'd even be able to have a career. I was like, "What do blind people even do?"
And I have no idea like what I could even do.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: I worked as a preschool teacher for a long time, and that was a very visually demanding job, so I was always kind of very, um, confused about what my occupation would be. Um, and I've been involved with the Foundation Fighting Blindness for 20 years now, and, um, I would do a lot of fundraising, and I kind of thought like, "Oh, maybe I'll get involved in a career doing that.
Um, maybe O&M," like who knows? Um- But then through this work, through the FFB, I would just constantly be talking to people, and it didn't matter whether we were talking about fundraising or research or whatever, it would always come back to a place of mental health. And I was like, wow, like this is the biggest thing that everyone wants to talk about is how do you manage your mental health when dealing with a blinding disease?
Like, it was just the biggest question, and it's the biggest [00:40:00] question that I've been asking myself all these years and having to like, you know, work on my own mental health. Um, I've just been very interested in it, and I just saw such a need. And, you know, like you said, there's not a lot of us. Like,
Matthew Reeves: No.
Jessie Wolinsky: so I figured like, okay, this is something I'm interested in.
This is something that I've already been doing a lot of work in my own life to be able to get my mental health to a place where I want it to be. Um, I
Matthew Reeves: [00:41:00] Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: experience place. And I feel that way with my, um, with my RP. I feel that way with my depression. I feel that way with feelings I've had about being adopted. I feel that way about ways I've handled trauma and abuse.
And so I just kind of feel like I've experienced all these areas and, and now I'm in a position where I can kind of use them to really help people who are also struggling with it. And, um, and even now as we know, like in America, I think recently it came out that, um, mental health concerns is like the number one, um, public concern. It's like surpassing cancer or something. It's like number like one is like mental health concerns. People are so concerned with how to their mental health. And, you know, [00:42:00] obviously that plays into a larger conversation
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: but it's, um, it's a need. It's a really, really big need, and so I'm very grateful that I'm in a position to help out my community.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. What a generous perspective.
Jessie Wolinsky: really
Matthew Reeves: that's, that's really quite beautiful.
Jessie Wolinsky: what
Matthew Reeves: I, I will say, I think you're right that
Jessie Wolinsky: any
Matthew Reeves: skilled therapist who's in the job for the right reasons
Jessie Wolinsky: can
Matthew Reeves: can help anybody with almost any problem.
Jessie Wolinsky: Um, I
Matthew Reeves: I don't, I don't think it requires vision loss to help somebody move through the emotions of vision loss.
I will say, though, that if anybody's encountering a therapist where they're not getting that kind of support, and you find yourself spending therapy sessions teaching your therapist about what you're going through,
Jessie Wolinsky: that's,
Matthew Reeves: that's not your role, and, and, and you deserve
Jessie Wolinsky: someone
Matthew Reeves: different. Uh, that may not be the right fit.
Um, so,
while
I-- while I'm not saying you gotta find a therapist with vision loss, I will say that you deserve-- that everybody [00:43:00] deserves a therapist that, um, that you are not in the teaching position, and they're just confused. Like that-- Like I, I think that
Jessie Wolinsky: takes a
Matthew Reeves: more energy from you than it gives to you, and, and that's not what you're paying for, so,
Jessie Wolinsky: for, so.
Absolutely. Oh, I'm so glad that you
Matthew Reeves: yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: up. That is such a, such a big important point. Like, yeah, you are not in a role of like having to teach your therapist and, um, whether or not they've had blind clients before, they should be able to, uh, give it a Google search
Matthew Reeves: empathize.
Jessie Wolinsky: they need to do to
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: get
Matthew Reeves: And the occasional question, if they ask a question so they can understand your situation better, that's not what I'm talking about. That's fine. Uh, it-- yeah. I, I-- it's a subtle distinction there,
Jessie Wolinsky: I
Matthew Reeves: but you'll know it when you feel it, I think.
Jessie Wolinsky: I think- It's true because they do need to understand your individual experience, you know? And so that's
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Jessie Wolinsky: to ask, like, "Hey, how do you experience this, and what's going on for you?"
Um, and
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Jessie Wolinsky: but yeah, the-- I, I appreciate that, that being brought up.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. I, I think one, one of the first things I [00:44:00] was taught when I went to school to become a therapist, my professor-- This is literally the first day of the first class. Uh, the therapist said, "You know
Jessie Wolinsky: if
Matthew Reeves: somebody goes to a restaurant they don't like, they'll never go to that restaurant again. But if they go to a therapist they don't like, they'll never go to therapy again.
So it's really important what you're doing. Uh, and that has stuck with me like,
Jessie Wolinsky: like
Matthew Reeves: like nothing else.
Jessie Wolinsky: and,
Matthew Reeves: and, and so if you,
Jessie Wolinsky: if
Matthew Reeves: if anybody feels like their therapist is a bad fit,
Jessie Wolinsky: I
Matthew Reeves: I would encourage anybody
Jessie Wolinsky: to
Matthew Reeves: to say, and this is a therapist saying this,
Jessie Wolinsky: Let's
Matthew Reeves: "Question it." Question that fit. You deserve a fit that feels comfortable and safe and understanding and empathetic, uh, and empowering.
Jessie Wolinsky: uh, and comfortable. Uh, so-
Matthew Reeves: yeah, you don't, you don't have to never go to therapy again. You can just find the right fit. You can find a different restaurant.
Jessie Wolinsky: didn't work. Absolutely. It's like if you find a friendship, you know. If one friendship doesn't work out, you gotta find one that's better aligned for you, you know.
It's, it's worth
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Jessie Wolinsky: definitely.
Matthew Reeves: Worth the search. [00:45:00] Good phrase.
Jessie Wolinsky: true.
Matthew Reeves: Uh, before we wrap up, uh, is there anything else that you feel like you'd like to communicate or say about your own story or to an audience that may be, uh, listening in?
Jessie Wolinsky: before we wrap up, uh, is there anything else that you would like maybe to communicate or say about your story to an audience that may be, uh, listening in? Yeah. Um, well, number one, I'm just so happy to, to be here and to be able to share my story and, um, anytime that I do these kind of podcasts or I'm just given the opportunity to talk about my experience, one thing that like always comes to mind for me is is a phrase that I've said for years, and it's like, "I can't control what happens to me, but I can always control my reaction."
And that's something that honestly made me very upset when I first started thinking about my vision loss this way. I'm like, can't control my reaction. I can't control how I feel. I'm angry about this. This is not fair. What do you mean I can't, I can't help that I feel this way?" And I really had to learn, yeah, those feelings that come up, those are valid, and I can't control those feelings that come up, and I shouldn't [00:46:00] control them.
I should explore them. They're a part of me. I can then learn from those feelings and learn from the experience and then be able to get to a place where I'm responding to this in a way that's truly aligned with who I wanna be. And like, does this help me cultivate the life I want? And am I responding to this way that is helping me create a life that is from my design? And am I the conscious creator of my own life, or am I looking to other people or to society messages or whatever outside of myself to tell me who I'm gonna be as a blind person, as a woman, just as Jesse? so I really want people to kinda take away from that, like it does not matter what messages you've received from the outside.
You can at any point in your life say, "Hey, this doesn't align with me. This is not who I wanna be. This is not how I wanna feel. This is not what I wanna think." And you can change that. Even if it doesn't feel like that change is so possible, it, it really is. [00:47:00] um, yeah, you can't control how you feel all the time, but you can control how you respond to it. I'm gonna go ahead and get going.
Matthew Reeves: incredibly empowering message to end on. Thank you.
Jessie Wolinsky: you
Matthew Reeves: Thank you so much. Uh, it's really,
Jessie Wolinsky: been a
Matthew Reeves: been a pleasure getting to know you, and thank you for your time and your generosity. So thank you, Jesse.
Jessie Wolinsky: you so much. Happy to be here, Matthew. This was a pleasure.
RECAP
Alex: This is placeholder for Jessie Wolinsky
Wolinsky generic voiceover.
OUTRO
Matthew Reeves: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Insight Out. You are the reason this podcast exists and we'd love to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. That's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. There, you can share your thoughts about today's conversation, suggest a topic for a future episode, or tell us about your experience living with [00:48:00] vision loss. Again, that's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Insight Out is produced by Integral Mental Health Services, my private practice that offers psychotherapy for adults in Georgia and disability adjustment and chronic illness counseling nationwide. Visit us at integralmhs.com and you can visit insightoutpod.com to catch up on all the episodes and to find links for subscribing in all the major podcast apps. A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube. Search for the channel, using the handle @inSightOutPod. You can also find us on social media using that same handle. I hope you'll join us for the next episode of inSight Out. Subscribe now in your favorite podcast app to stay connected. Thanks again for listening. [00:49:00]