018 The Complexities of Caregiving with Ronda Thorington LPC
Joining me today is Ronda Thorington, a Licensed Professional Counselor who brings both clinical expertise and profound lived experience to our conversation. After her daughter was diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease, Ronda discovered a massive gap in mental health support for those navigating complex medical journeys. Today, she shares her passion for supporting caregivers and families, offering valuable tools for resilience and identity. We explore how the "caregiver" label impacts our humanity and how to navigate the deep emotional dance between those with physical limitations and those who care about them.
Beyond the Label: Reflections on Caregiving and Identity
As a psychotherapist who is also legally blind, I spend a lot of time thinking about the language we use to describe our lives. We talk about "adjustment," "adaptation," and "rehabilitation." But there is one word that has always managed to get under my skin: caregiver. I’ve felt it in my own life—that visceral reaction when a museum offers a "caregiver discount" for my partner. It isn't that the act of giving care isn't beautiful; it’s that the word often feels like it robs both people in the relationship of their full humanity.
This was the starting point for my recent conversation with Ronda Thorington, an LPC who has walked the walk as both a clinician and a "medical mom". Ronda’s story is one of those that stays with you. She recounted the grueling years following her daughter’s rare autoimmune diagnosis—the 50-plus specialists, the endless recounting of trauma, and the crushing realization that in the medical world, the caregiver is often invisible. Her "seed" was planted at the NIH when, after seeing 25 specialists, a single rheumatologist looked her in the eye and asked, "How are you doing?".
That simple question is at the heart of what we discussed. In the low vision community, the focus is naturally on the person losing their sight. But what about the person standing next to them?. Ronda introduced the concept of "vicarious trauma"—the trauma we experience simply by bearing witness to the pain and struggles of those we love. If you find yourself catching your breath when your partner struggles with a task, or feeling a physical pang when your child realizes they are "different," that is a real, somatic response. It is normal, and it deserves to be seen.
One of the most profound parts of our talk focused on the "time offset" of grief. Often, the person with vision loss processes the initial shock and begins to find a new normal, only for the family to hit their own wall of grief months or even years later. This can create tension—the person with the disability might feel like they have to "fix" the family's sadness. Ronda’s advice here was liberating: "You don't have to help them through their grief... everybody is responsible for managing their own stuff".
We also tackled the difficult topic of feeling like a "burden". Ronda shared a conversation she had with her daughter just the day before our interview, where she had to clarify: "I hate this disease... but you’re my joy". This distinction is vital for anyone living with low vision. Your needs may be complex, and the world may not be built for your body, but you are not the burden. The situation is heavy, but you are the person inside it, worthy of love and separate from the symptoms of your diagnosis.
Ronda’s "Resilient Parent Toolkit" offers a way forward through micro-boundaries and the reclamation of joy. She reminds us that self-care isn't a luxury; it’s a clinical necessity. If the caregiver isn't well, the system doesn't work. As we wrapped up, we landed on a mantra that I hope every listener takes to heart: We are not our burdens. Whether you are the one holding the white cane or the one walking beside them, you matter, your grief is valid, and your identity is so much larger than the care you give or receive.
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In this episode of inSight Out, host Matthew Reeves sits down with Licensed Professional Counselor Ronda Thorington to discuss the often-overlooked emotional landscape of caregiving. Ronda shares her powerful personal journey of navigating her daughter’s rare autoimmune diagnosis and the "aha moment" at the National Institutes of Health that led her to specialize in supporting caregivers. Together, they bridge the gap between general medical complexity and the specific experiences of families living with low vision and blindness.
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of "vicarious trauma"—the emotional toll of witnessing a loved one’s struggle—and how to manage the "time offset" of grief within a family. Ronda provides a compassionate framework for moving past the labels that can rob us of our humanity, emphasizing that neither the caregiver nor the care recipient should be defined solely by a diagnosis. This conversation is a masterclass in maintaining individual identity while navigating a shared disability journey.
The episode also introduces practical tools from Ronda’s "Resilient Parent Toolkit," including how to set micro-boundaries and reclaim a sense of "new normal" through structure and routine. Whether you are a parent of a child with vision loss, a partner providing support, or someone living with a diagnosis who feels like a "burden," this episode offers the language and the permission to prioritize your own mental wellbeing.
Topics Covered: Caregiving, vicarious trauma, chronic illness, low vision, grief cycles, identity beyond diagnosis, family communication, curiosity in relationships, medical trauma, pediatric illness, resilient parenting, self-care, invisible disability, and mental health advocacy.
Reach Ronda at (860) 533-0912 or rthorington@rtparentcoach.com. Download the Resiliant Parent Toolkit: www.resilientparentconsulting.com
ABOUT THE PODCAST
inSight Out is your podcast home for living well with vision loss. Host Matthew Reeves (LPC CRC NCC) is a legally-blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor specializing in helping people thrive while living with disability. Matthew is licensed in Georgia and is a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor.
Please be sure to subscribe to catch every episode. And remember to share the show with others in the blind and low-vision community!
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©Integral Mental Health Services, LLC
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The following transcript is AI generated and likely contains errors.
018 Caring About Caregivers with Ronda Thorington LPC
COLD OPEN
[00:00:00]
Ronda Thorington: we are not this label that we put upon ourselves. You know, it's like I am. You know, am I a parent caregiver? Yes. And I'm also, you know, a mom to two other children, and I'm a wife, and I'm a business owner, and, you know, I, I'm a black woman, and all of these things, you know? So this is just, just one aspect of who I am. Um, and I think that, you know, sometimes we can lose sight of that, you know, as you know, people who are, you know, helping other people to take care of their health. And I think we can lose sight of that as, you know, care recipients as well. You know, we can think that this is, this is all that I am.
INTRO
Matthew Reeves: You're listening to Insight Out a podcast about living well with low [00:01:00] vision. Maybe you're feeling confused, scared, isolated, or disheartened about a recent vision loss diagnosis, or maybe you've been managing your vision loss for a while and now you want to hear from others about how to continue growing and thriving. Insight Out is your supportive space to find healthy and impactful tools to build and maintain a truly rich and gratifying life with low or no vision.
I'm Matthew Reeves. I'm a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor. I specialize in helping people adjust to disability through my practice, integral Mental Health Services in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm really glad you're listening.
Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and let others in the low vision community know about the podcast so the word can spread to those who might find it helpful. And now on with today's discussion.
TOPIC INTRO
Alex: this is placeholder for generic voiceover.
INTERVIEW
Matthew Reeves: hi, Rhonda, welcome to Insight [00:02:00] Out. Uh, I say the, I feel like I say the same thing at the beginning of every episode, but it's always true. I'm excited to talk to you. Um, I recently, uh, was attending a conference where I got to hear your presenta. It was a conference for, uh, clinicians that help folks with chronic illnesses.
And you gave a presentation about, uh, the caregiver. Families with complex medical needs and it really resonated with me. And while your presentation wasn't specifically about blindness or low vision, there was a ton of overlap with, uh, the families that I serve. So I asked you when you were gracious enough to join me, so I'm really excited to have this conversation 'cause it, those, those topics really resonated a lot with me.
So thank you for being here. I'm really grateful.
Ronda Thorington: Oh, of course. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am I. My passion, my jam is helping and supporting caregivers in any way possible, so I was so excited. Uh. Uh, for you to invite me on your podcast. So I [00:03:00] know when you asked me, I was like, yes, yes, yes. So, so, thank you so much for having me here.
Matthew Reeves: Absolutely. Could I ask you to get the ball rolling by telling me how you became passionate about caregiving and, and I should mention, uh, that, uh, this will probably be in the introduction that I'll record later, but, but you're a licensed professional counselor. Um, so, so this is a, this is clinical work for you, but it's also passionate work for you.
And, and if you're comfortable, it's some lived experience, uh, story. So can you just tell me how you came to this?
Ronda Thorington: Yeah, certainly. So, um, so in. My clinical work as a licensed professional counselor, I al you know, I've al often found myself working with families, um, impacted by, uh, a loved one's medical issues. But then in 2011, uh, my then 4-year-old daughter, uh, got sick, uh, with a very rare autoimmune disease. And so I quickly learned that [00:04:00] there were, um, very few mental health supports.
For patients and even fewer for caregivers. Caregivers weren't even acknowledged in the space, um, in, in the patient and medical space. So, and that's understandable because, you know, you want the focus to be on the patient, but you know, the caregivers are responsible for making sure that the patients get to the appointments and ensuring treatment adherence and, you know, so we had a whole experience that was not being, um. Acknowledged, um, or assessed. So, so that's really what kind of pulled me into this. I didn't think, geez, you know, it'd be nice to work with caregivers. No, I was that caregiver. And I
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Ronda Thorington: had to kind of, um, really lean into my own clinical training to help myself, to help my family. And so then, you know, fast forward, you know, um, eight [00:05:00] years later, you know, well 10 years now, um.
And I decided to formalize it. 'cause after having enough medical providers tell me, oh my goodness, you need to be helping other caregivers because there's not a space for, uh, helping them right now. After I heard that enough times, I decided, okay, I'll do it. So, so, and here I am.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, you said fast forward. I wanna rewind a little bit. You know, so much of the work that you and I both do, I, I suspect, I know it's true for me, uh, is helping people feel seen and normalize what their experience is.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: And you're tr you're telling a story where. Not only were you going through what must have been an enormously stressful thing for a parent, for a child to be diagnosed with a very rare, very significant disease,
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: you also weren't being seen
Ronda Thorington: Right.
Matthew Reeves: what was like, that must have been very hard.
And [00:06:00] would you, would you tell us about what that experience was like?
Ronda Thorington: Oh yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So yes, that was incredibly, incredibly difficult. And you know, I would go into these offices and recount, 'cause my daughter's, my, not only is my daughter's condition rare, but the presentation of it is also rare. So it's the rarest of the rare. So I would go into many medical providers offices and. I would have to recount her story over and over and over again. Now, mind you, so, so also reactivating my own vicarious trauma and, you know, recounting everything that we'd experienced. And, you know, no one ever asked me how I was doing, you know, how I was managing this, you know, I did like a, um. Uh, I start, I, I did like a count of around how many specialists we had seen in those first five years of her treatment.
And I'd [00:07:00] say a conservative estimate would, was at least 50.
Matthew Reeves: Wow,
Ronda Thorington: Yeah, we saw, oh my goodness. We were in so many different departments, nephrology, neurology, uh, pulmonology, all the ologies we
Matthew Reeves: all theologies.
Ronda Thorington: yes. All the ologies and Yeah. No of, of those. Specialists, probably two asked me how I was doing and one of them was her pediatrician.
We had a long standing relationship, so it wasn't unusual for him to ask me how I was doing. But as far as like the specialists, it was like one, and we were five years in. And I remember sitting in, uh, at the National Institutes of Health, um, when we had to go there because my daughters. You know, condition had her specialists at the number one children's hospital in the country stumped. So they sent us to NIH and after meeting with 25 [00:08:00] different specialists at NIH, you know, sitting in a room with a rheumatologist, I was exhausted. I was spent, I, after recounting her story yet again, he turned to me and looked me in the eyes and said, and how are you doing? in that moment, I felt seen. Validate and it didn't matter what my response was 'cause I, I couldn't tell him exactly what I wanted to say because my daughter was sitting there. But it was the fact that he asked me the question in a very authentic way. It made me feel for the first time, like, wow, someone really sees me and what I'm going through. it was, it was a, a really powerful moment and that always stuck with me. So, so that's when the seed was planted, you know, oh, maybe I need to, you know, help educate providers and how to help caregivers that it was, it was planted in that moment.
Matthew Reeves: Seed was planted
Ronda Thorington: was,
Matthew Reeves: to recognize both the need [00:09:00] for it and the beginnings of the way to address it. Uh, the,
Ronda Thorington: Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: You know?
Ronda Thorington: that was just incredibly difficult. Incredibly
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: it sounds like it. I'm so sorry that you and your family had to go through that. Um, you know, I asked you a very personal question and in it you used a term that, now I wanna ask you a clinical question.
Um, you used the term vicarious trauma, and I think that's a term that not a lot of people know. Can you, can you unpack that for, for the listeners?
Ronda Thorington: Sure. Yeah. And you'll find like in our discuss, because I'm a therapist and and a mom, I'm gonna like go back and
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons you're such a great guest.
Ronda Thorington: Geez. So, um, vicarious trauma is that trauma that we experience or, or any, any human being can experience at bearing witness to someone else's trauma. in the caregiver space, it is around. Witnessing all of the things that our loved ones have to go through. [00:10:00] Um, you know, the painful, uh, medical treatments, the uncertainty, the, the grief that our loved ones experience, all of the things that we witness. Which can cause our loved ones trauma can inevitably cause us trauma. So, you know, it's, it's that trauma from witnessing someone else's trauma.
So
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Ronda Thorington: trauma piece. So, and we often like look at it in terms of, you know, a first responders or, um, uh, a lot of times with first responders and, uh, medical doctors. Uh, but yeah, we, that and, and mental health
Matthew Reeves: And mental health clinicians. Yeah. Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: Mental health clinicians, but yeah, but that caregivers, we experience that vicarious trauma all the time.
All the time. You know, I, I will say, like for myself, you know, having to witness my daughter get some painful, uh, medical procedures, you know, when she was four and first got sick, the way that it manifested, um, initially was, um, a low [00:11:00] platelet count. So, and her doctors at the time decided to take a watchful waiting stance, so that meant. Taking her to our local children's hospital once a week for her to get her blood drawn. Now, for a 4-year-old who had never even been sick, you know, to have to get your blood drawn every week is a traumatic experience. So, and to this day, like, you know, she's 19 now, so this is what, 14 years later when she goes to get her blood drawn.
And if, if the, um. If the doctor or the phlebotomist or the nurses have a hard time finding a vein, find myself, you know, kind of like catching my breath
Matthew Reeves: Right, right.
Ronda Thorington: of, you know, that past trauma,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. It shows up physically somatically, which is very, very normal for humans. That that deep, deep, deep primal connection between emotions and threat and the body shows up for you. Yeah. Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: [00:12:00] Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: What do you think, uh, you know, as you're talking about a 4-year-old being diagnosed, and I'm, I'm trying to kind of translate this.
Into this podcast topic, which is low vision for the most part. Um, it's pretty rare. I, I, I don't have the statistics. I'm just, I'm basing this on intuition. It's pretty rare for somebody at that age to lose vision. Typically at that point it's congenital. Uh, they, they were born without vision or it happens later in life.
Um, do you, do you feel like, um. How do you re-imagine this might relate to caregivers or parents of somebody who is born with a condition, uh, and. Maybe, I mean, in this space, probably less, less having to do with painful procedures, just being different. Right. Just, just realizing that over as they grow up and as they emerge into their own identity, recognizing that their body is not like the people, the body of [00:13:00] those around them and their peers.
Um, do you have any thoughts on, on what that's like for parents?
Ronda Thorington: Oh yeah. Yeah. I think you know, what comes to mind as you're talking is grief. that, um, uh, anticipatory grief, that ongoing grief that your child is not having a typical quote unquote life. Having to manage all of, you know, these unforeseen challenges. Um, and just having, it feels so unfair. You know, I think, you know, and the difference, the differences in, you know, congenital when you're born with, um. When you're born with, uh, low vision or blindness, you know, you're kind of thrust into that immediately. But then when someone loses vision later on, or you, you come to learn that someone will eventually lose their [00:14:00] vision, there's, then there's that anticipatory grief, So, and that's also, you know, all of it is so insidious. and I think that's the biggest thing that, that parents and caregivers have to grapple is that grief piece. And, you know, and then when you look at, um, the, the child, you know, what children have to grapple with is the. How do I figure out who I am, you know, in relation to my peers? Because, you know, developmentally kids wanna be like everybody else.
They don't wanna be different. And so there is a, a tremendous struggle in that, in feeling different. So, and I think that, you know, as parents, you know, again, another thing that at least, you know, I'll speak for myself 'cause I don't have the statistics around this. You know, I spent a lot of time trying to get my daughter to feel like, oh you are just like everybody else. Don't you let anybody [00:15:00] tell you different? Just 'cause
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Ronda Thorington: this autoimmune disease, you are not different. the reality is, yeah, she is different. So, you know, getting her and me to understand and accept that, and yeah, you are different different isn't bad. different just is.
Matthew Reeves: I'm so glad you said that, that I think that's such a, a valuable framework. Uh, we don't have to be afraid of different, um, but we, and we don't have to judge different, um.
Ronda Thorington: right,
Matthew Reeves: But yeah, I can feel myself getting activated
Ronda Thorington: Oh,
Matthew Reeves: from my own childhood. So like, this is deep stuff. This is really deep stuff. Yeah,
Ronda Thorington: it's,
Matthew Reeves: it is.
I'm, I was always grateful that, um, my parents sent, didn't, did not send me the message, oh, you can do anything because I, I know that at a certain point I would've recognized that as dishonest. Right. I can't be a commercial airline pilot.
Ronda Thorington: Mm.
Matthew Reeves: gonna happen. I'm not gonna be a [00:16:00] neurosurgeon, not gonna happen.
Um, I'm not, I can't be a bus driver. Not gonna happen. Right? So it's not just, you know, let's I, and I needed, I was grateful that I received honesty in that.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: they also said. Don't let you know. Don't assume what you can't do. Right. You can. You can go beyond the expectations that may, that you may hear about from other people.
Like those do not define you. That was important. That was important.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. I.
Ronda Thorington: Yeah. Yeah. And I found, you know, as, as a parent, you have to like, you know, be your child's like biggest cheerleader, right? And push them when they may not necessarily wanna be pushed. And I know for myself, like finding those people. To place in my daughter's life so that you know, the ones who were gonna push her when she needed to be pushed and allow her to rest when she needed to rest.
And who were honest with her [00:17:00] about what she was capable of doing. So that was so important as well. 'cause I think, you know, it's hard, you know, with kids, you know. It's easy to find people with the best of intentions, can be super enabling and you know, that is so very detrimental. I remember my daughter, um, she was probably like seven at the time, and so then, you know, her disease has progressed and looked many different.
It manifested differently at different points in her life and at one point she had a lot of muscle pain and weakness and it impacted her ability to walk. And so my mom, her grandmother would come over and watch the kids so that I could go to work. Um, and she came over and my daughter had, like left some toys on the floor in the family room. And so I, you know, and she wasn't able to wa one of her legs was really bothering her, so she was kind of hopping around. And so [00:18:00] she come, my mom comes over and she's like, oh, let me pick up these toys. She can't do that. She's hurt her leg. I said, oh no, knows the rules. So if she has to hop over there and pick up those toys, then so be it. This is something she's gonna have to manage for the rest of her life. And she doesn't get to just like, you know, have a take a pass, you know? So, so yeah. So just really finding ways to help empower her and not allow people to enable her. That has
Matthew Reeves: How do you,
Ronda Thorington: hugely
Matthew Reeves: you walk that line between. Accommodation, reasonable accommodation to put it in a legal framework. But, but beyond, beyond just the a DA, just accommodating somebody's differences, as we talked about, as you know, honestly, uh, emotionally honest and practically honest differences, um, with, uh.
Enabling or, or the, the dangers of enabling that, that's a thin, that can be a [00:19:00] thin line to try and walk on. How do you as a parent and as a clinician, help other parents or other caregivers, parent or otherwise, uh, navigate that line? Right.
Ronda Thorington: Yeah. So I think it starts with having really open, honest communications with the child or, or the, the patient if you will. I hate the term patient. Um, so, you know, really having open communication, you know, like, okay, let's talk about. You know, what are you really able to do? You know, and what, and looking at, okay, is there something that you know when you're. When you're not feeling, you know, kind of up to pushing yourself and you're not feeling like you, you know, wanna be as capable in some moments as in others, like getting to the core of like, okay, what's, what's that about? know? Um, you know, does it kind of feel, you [00:20:00] know. Do you feel more connected? You know, to me as your parent when you know I'm helping you more, you know, with putting your clothes on or putting your shoes on, or something like that, you know, as opposed to other times when you have to do it yourself, you know, is it kind of like a manifestation of, you know, how much you know this. This condition sucks, you know? And are you just kind of putting your foot down and saying, no, I'm not doing it. Is it a manifestation of that frustration in that an in that anger? Um, so I, you know, I work with caregivers and encourage them around having some of that honest communication and then also checking in with themselves too, because sometimes, you know, the thing that we don't talk about as caregivers is, you know, who are we if we're not doing all of the things for our loved one, you know, if our identity is completely wrapped up in them, then are we invested in having [00:21:00] them be as independent as they could be? So, yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Glad you mentioned that.
Ronda Thorington: we don't
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned that. I want to come back to that. I wanna put a pin in that, because I don't want to, I don't wanna miss something else you just, you just talked about, but what you just mentioned is really important, I think. Um, but if we go back one step, um, I think one of the, when we were talking about.
Practical ways to help. You mentioned putting on shoes or, you know, things of that nature in the blind and low vision world. Um, many things are doable, but many of those things take much, much, much longer. And so it's a question of patience and time. Uh, and you know, so it's not a question of can you do it or can you not do it?
It's not a duality, it's not binary. It really is a, in this moment. Does it make sense for you to do it or does it make sense for you to get help? And that can be really challenging [00:22:00] because you've got two people at a minimum, sometimes way more, that are trying to get to dinner or a soccer game or school or whatever.
Um, and there's some, you know, these practical pressures that come in that say, now is not the moment for me to do this, or Now is not the moment for you to do this. And, and different people might have different perspectives on, on who needs to be doing this task right now, or who should be doing, or who gets to do this task right now.
And it's not just the practical pressures, it's also the emotional pressures. Sometimes it's kind of you, you implied this, like you're throwing your hands up and saying, I, I'm in the middle of grieving. I don't have the energy for this. I don't have the patience for this. I don't want to do this right now.
I wanna ask for help. I want somebody else to hand take this pressure off of me. And on the other end of the spectrum, it can be a. God damnit, no, I'm gonna do this and I don't wanna ask for help. And it can be the exact same task, maybe even the exact same situation.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: to [00:23:00] I hear you, and I just wanted to acknowledge the complexity of that.
Ronda Thorington: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the key point is having that level of communication,
Matthew Reeves: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ronda Thorington: curiosity too. Like, oh, I noticed that today you were really, you really dug your heels in and wanting to complete this task on your own, but the other day you were okay with me doing it. What? What was that about?
Let's talk about that.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: 'cause I think you've gotta have such. Open and clear communication and really coming from a perspective of curiosity and that I can't stress enough, just be curious. Even more so when you're convinced that you know why, you know what's driving the behavior. So if you're convinced that, you know, that's a red flag that, oh, I'm not being curious enough. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: That's, I, I love that as just a very. Clear metric or of something I can do. Like if I'm not understanding what's going on, if I'm feeling [00:24:00] confused, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, that's a really good indication that it's time to slow down and say, what questions do I have? What do I not understand about this moment?
Uh, I love that it's so, such a useful tool in the toolkit.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: Um, to return to the, to your comment on identity, you know, as I was listening to you speak at the conference, um, I even. I started to feel a way, like, like my own humanity is gonna come out in this episode. Uh, therapists are humans. Um,
Ronda Thorington: we
Matthew Reeves: and even the topic, when I saw it printed on the, on the program about caregiving, I was like, I hate that word.
I hate that word, caregiver. And I had to ask myself, why do I hate that word so much? I had to like, be my own therapist and get curious.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: 'cause I've talked to my partner about this, like, we'll go to museums or, you know, we, we like to travel and we'll go places and there will be discounts for somebody with a disability [00:25:00] discount for somebody with disability.
No problem. I, it doesn't bother me in the least. I'll take that discount all day long.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: The second they use the word caregiver for a discount for my partner. I'm late. I hate that word. I hate that word so much. And so I had to start asking myself, what is it about that word that that really gets under my skin?
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: And as I was kind of processing that through, I was realizing like it's a, it's an identity question. This museum or whoever is viewing me as a care recipient and nothing more.
Ronda Thorington: Yes.
Matthew Reeves: To define my partner as one thing. Define me as one thing, and that's what bugs me. It robs me of my humanity.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: So can you talk about that?
Ronda Thorington: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, and I, and like you, the, the whole caregiver piece is Yeah. I, I, I'm not a fan. I, we need to come up with a better, a
Matthew Reeves: Maybe we don't.[00:26:00]
Ronda Thorington: yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: People are giving care and what a lovely thing to give, like the, the words it, it's, it was about what was going on inside of me.
Ronda Thorington: Right,
Matthew Reeves: don't think the word is necessarily problematic, but you know, so much of disability, even the word disability, like
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: perceive different words in different ways at different times.
And so I think it's, I think what's important for me at least, is to acknowledge what was going on for me and, and to take the power away from the word and give the power back to me.
Ronda Thorington: Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. 'cause you're not one dimensional,
Matthew Reeves: Right. Right.
Ronda Thorington: not less capable. You know, I think that's the implication as well, is that, you know, if you, if you're a caregiver, then you are taking care of someone who isn't capable of caring for themselves. And there there's nuts further from the truth. So I think that, you know, we have to, you know, it. Understand that we are [00:27:00] not, you know, we are not this label that we put upon ourselves. You know, it's like I am. You know, am I a parent caregiver? Yes. And I'm also, you know, a mom to two other children, and I'm a wife and I'm a business owner and you know, I, I'm a black woman and all of these things, you know, so this is just, just one aspect of who I am. Um, and I think that, you know, sometimes we can lose sight of that, you know, as you know, people who are, you know. Helping other people to take care of their health. And I think we can lose sight of that as, you know, care recipients as well. You know, we can think that this is, this is all that I am. I know that, you know, and for my daughter, you know, when she is in, you know, struggling, and this is true for a lot of, you know, folks, um. with medical complexity, it's [00:28:00] like, why? Why is this happening to me? Why did I get this? And, you know, I have to say, well, honey, you got, it's a combination of your dad's genetics and my genetics. it just so ha that's
Matthew Reeves: Circumstance.
Ronda Thorington: Yes. Circumstance. But those same genetics also contributed to you being an amazing artist and a beautiful singer
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Ronda Thorington: know, a, a, you know, a a, a science minded, you know, student and, you know, all of these things.
So it's not just the disease that, you know, it, it. It's all of these other things as well. So all of these great things, all of these beautiful things and you know, and we wouldn't trade those things for the world this autoimmune disease is one little sliver of who you are in totality. So I think that, yeah, we have to kind of remind ourselves of that.
So, and I, and I often do that, you [00:29:00] know, with the families that I work with as well.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Ronda Thorington: it's like your, your child is bigger than this disease. So
Matthew Reeves: and it,
Ronda Thorington: know, and, and with that, don't allow it to take over your entire life
Matthew Reeves: right, because the of the nature of the world we live in. That, that part of our identity when it affects our body and it affects how our body interfaces with the world and it's a world not built for that body,
Ronda Thorington: right.
Matthew Reeves: part of our identity gets overindexed. Like more attention gets put on that part of our identity, out of necessity sometimes.
And, but that like. That's a, an error in the world, in my mind. Like that's, that's not a function of who you are. It's, it's, it's a function of how you're having to adapt to a world that's not made for you.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: but that, that over-indexing of that attention on your body
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: really take an emotional toll. Um, and it's, so, it's important to remember that.
That, that overin indexing is not our [00:30:00] fault. Uh, and we can be angry about that, and we probably should be angry about that. We should be more angry about the fact that the world is not more accommodating, um, and we can grieve it. Um, you mentioned grief and the, the sort of the why me moment, um, which I think almost everybody with a physical disability and, and other, and other situations too.
Lots of them, um, experiences that, why is this happening to me? Um, and I think for, for the purposes of this conversation, I'm also thinking about like, caregivers can ask the same question. Why did this happen to my loved one? Why did this happen to my family? Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: exactly. Exactly. You know, I know, you know, so many things that, you know, I had to grieve as a parent. I had to, you know, I grieved the, you know, loss of my career, you know? I didn't plan to, you know, kind of be a, you know, a champion for caregivers and focus on working with caregivers. I was gonna grow a private, um, a private psychotherapy practice.
I wanted to have a group [00:31:00] practice. I wanted to, you know, focus solely on kids and families. At the time when my daughter got sick, I wasn't adjunct instructor at a local university. So I was toying with the idea, do I get my PhD, do I go full-time into academia? You know, and all of that in, in seemingly overnight was just taken away. because, you know, and understandably so. I had to focus on her and, you know, and my other kids and focus on this, this trauma that, uh, you know, impacted my family. So, so just so much grief, um, around that. And, you know, I had to grieve not being the parent that I thought I was gonna be. You know, I, you know, before this I was the, you know, the, the classroom mom, I was the one that baked the cupcakes and brought 'em in, you know, to celebrate kids' birthdays.
And I was the one who was the secret reader. And, you know, all I was, I was in the PTO and all of the things, and I, [00:32:00] that was the mom. I envisioned myself being, and then overnight I became, you know, a medical mom, you know, going to appointments multiple times a week and, you know, staying home to watch her.
And, and I couldn't be as involved with, you know, the other two, my other two children at school because she required so much of me. Um, so grieving all of that, there's so much grief and, and I feel like grief is, we, we do such a terrible job
Matthew Reeves: We do. We do.
Ronda Thorington: We,
Matthew Reeves: We really, really do,
Ronda Thorington: we only have permission to grieve when someone has died,
Matthew Reeves: right?
Ronda Thorington: then it ha we have to follow the six stages of grief soup
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Ronda Thorington: and then it has the beginning, middle, and an end, and then we're supposed to get on with our lives.
So, you know, so, so you're grieving someone who is there, who is alive, that's. Really tough, you know, as a parent. 'cause you know, for me, I felt so much [00:33:00] guilt, like, why am I feeling this way? She's alive. I'm not supposed to feel this way. You know, I'm being so selfish right now. Um, so there's all of that that, you know, caregivers carry and, you know, and not to mention, you know, what the person experiencing the, um. illness carries as well. You know, there's another thing I wanted to, to loop back and touch upon a little bit. When
Matthew Reeves: Sure.
Ronda Thorington: about, you know, how our world is not, um, equipped to, uh, manage like physical differences, you know, also like our world is not equipped to recognize invisible differences
Matthew Reeves: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Ronda Thorington: Yes. 'cause I think about, you know, your community, if someone is blind, that's very evident. If someone has
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: Not so much.
Matthew Reeves: Often not.
Ronda Thorington: much. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: And so, and with my daughter's illness, um, her condition, it's [00:34:00] invisible because oftentimes she can feel horrible, be experiencing the worst autoimmune flare of her life and look fine.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: So, so that piece of, you know. Constantly do you have feeling like you almost have to justify why, you know, you're, you know, she's not engaged in certain activities or why she missed school or, you know, something like that. It, it's always, you know, that's, that's a challenge too. That's a challenge too.
Feeling like the need to kind of justify
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: know. have to answer to these strangers who, you know, don't have a heaven or hell to put me in, but feeling like they should know why she's not at school today. Like,
Matthew Reeves: Right, right. And, and it can be hard enough to ask for help, but to ask for help and have to explain why is just an extra layer and feel. And, and you may not need to explain why, but so often we feel like we do and, and, you know, looking at that. The face of the [00:35:00] barista at the coffee shop when you can't do the damn touchscreen to do the tip right, like it's, it's knowing that they are confused about what the situation is in front of them
Ronda Thorington: Right?
Matthew Reeves: to put, suddenly wanting to put them at ease.
It's like, uh, that's a, it's, it's, it's such a bounce back and forth and we're talking about, you know, care recipient and caregiver, but it's also now that, you know, care recipient and the people in the world, uh, and in some cases they are in a small way, a caregiver. If I say to the barista, you're just gonna have to deal with the touchscreen on your own.
I'm not gonna, they, they are providing care for me. Like I'm asking something of them. And hopefully they're giving it, um, in a very small way. So caregiver can be a very all encompassing term, but. It's always about the relationship and every move in that relationship, uh, causes the other person to need to move too.
'cause I'm thinking about like, when you were talking about, you know, feeling like your own grief. Well, at various stages of your daughter's [00:36:00] life, you've had these honest conversations and she's like, wait, oh, so I'm not the person that you were expecting. That's another layer of grief. Now I'm a burden. Am I a burden or am I not a burden?
Like how do I. How do I reconcile that? And then she makes a move and then you make a move and then she, it's, it's a dance. It's an emotional dance between two or more people.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: Uh, that's so complicated. It's so complicated. How have you, how have you navigated that? How do you help people navigate that?
Ronda Thorington: Oh my goodness. I swear, were, were you at the hospital with me and my daughter yesterday? 'cause we were having that very conversation.
Matthew Reeves: We, we were, I was not, I was not, I promise.
Ronda Thorington: No, I, I laugh, but you know, it's so like, oh. 'cause that. That is a very real conversation. Am I a burden? I am so sorry that I am a burden to you. Um, you know, she said those exact words to me yesterday and I said, honey, no, not at all. Um, know, I think [00:37:00] helping, helping, um, parents and caregivers understand like separate, anger and resentment. Toward the disease or disability from the person.
Matthew Reeves: Yes.
Ronda Thorington: So, and that was the very conversation I had with my daughter yesterday. You know, I hate. This stupid disease. I hate that you are suffering. I hate that the medical providers don't have the answers that I want them to have right now. That's what's making me angry and upset and resentful, not you. You're my joy. So kind of being
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Ronda Thorington: to separate the
Matthew Reeves: yeah. Separating the We are not our burdens.
Ronda Thorington: exactly. Exactly, exactly. We are not
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. How do you, when, one of the things I've noticed about grief, and, and you're right, I think we do a terrible [00:38:00] job, uh, talking about grief in our society and maybe other societies do it better. Um, in fact, to, to the extent that whenever anybody asks me to talk about the work I do, grief is like my go-to topic.
Like that's,
Ronda Thorington: Yeah. Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: because we need to talk a lot more about it. Um.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: But how do you, one of the things I've noticed about the grief of vision loss in families is that the grief, um, there's a time offset. There's a delay between the grief that the person who has the impairment is experiencing and then they're getting used to their new normal.
And especially with progressive conditions or dynamic conditions, like they hit it first. Then as they're processing through their own grief, hopeful, hopefully in a healthy way, the family. Might recognize it later or might recognize that, that that new normal is impacting them in a new way. And it could be days, weeks, months, or years later, but there's always this time [00:39:00] offset.
And then the person with the, with the impairment is like. Wait a minute, now you're back there. I, I've moved on, like, I, now I've gotta help you like it, you know what I mean? This is, that, that, that time delay is, it becomes a really big factor in the relationship. Have, have you encountered that and how, how do you, how do you reconcile or, or grapple with that?
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm. So I think, you know, so one of the things that I do, I, yes, yes, I have encountered that. And I think one of the things that, that I tend to do is help, is normalize it. Number one, help
Matthew Reeves: Okay.
Ronda Thorington: that, you know, uh, grieve, people grieve differently. People grieve on different timelines, and that's okay.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: you know, and I think that, you know, helping. The person, you know, experiencing the person who's living in the body that's experiencing all of the changes, you know, yes, they're going to feel [00:40:00] the grief sooner because they're physically experiencing the changes in, in a more direct way than someone who, a family member who, who obviously doesn't live in their body. So I think, you know, helping the, um. The person experiencing the condition to not feel responsible for helping their, uh, their parent or their caregiver, or their sibling or their other, their family member. You don't have to help them through their grief. You know, they get to be responsible for their own feelings. I think so much when we are carrying big stuff, you know, we tend to feel the need to take care of other people. Again, when you kind of internalize it that, wow, I'm this burden, so I've gotta make sure this person's okay. I've got, because it's my fault that they're even in this space, so I've gotta make sure they're okay. No, you don't.
Matthew Reeves: And no, it's not your fault.
Ronda Thorington: [00:41:00] Right. And no, it's not your fault and everybody's responsible for managing their own stuff.
Matthew Reeves: Right, right.
Ronda Thorington: you know, so I think that's kind of the message that I, I tend to reiterate, you know, in families when, um, when I see this, and also again, reiterating that everybody's grief shows up differently. You know, even in whether, you know, you can have, you know, two parents, you know, their grief is gonna show up differently. For me, it was, um, I constantly felt early on, like forsaken and hopeless, um, disempowered, you know, for my husband, you know, go going through the same thing, right? Um, he was, he withdrew more know, sometimes he got more angry. So, you know, you can, you know, even two adults, expe can experience a circumstance. Um. Can grieve differently,[00:42:00]
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. You said something in there about, um, the person with the, uh, disability or illness feeling like, oh, I have to help.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: loved one processed their grief. That, and I think help is, is a really important word there because it's this idea of I have to fix it. Right? I have to, I have to alleviate the grief.
I have to make it go away when in fact, grief is a totally normal human experience. There is, that is not a problem to be solved. It, it's not a problem at all. It's, it is part of being human. We've got. Uh, you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years of being human and we've evolved to experience grief.
When we lose something valuable, it's an expression of value. Um, and so, uh, I, I've rather than alleviate the word I like to use as a company, um,
Ronda Thorington: Mm, mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: we just [00:43:00] need to be with the person who's grieving
Ronda Thorington: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: and we can be with each other. Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: I
Matthew Reeves: With
Ronda Thorington: the word Terry. Terry
Matthew Reeves: Terry. Terry, that's.
Ronda Thorington: me. Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: Not, not a common word, but a perfect word for this situation.
Yeah,
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: Then,
Ronda Thorington: in, in our Western culture, you know, we don't. We don't wanna experience any discomfort,
Matthew Reeves: right.
Ronda Thorington: so we wanna just, let's get it over with, let's push it aside.
Let's you know, come on, let's move through it. Because when you are grieving, it makes me feel uncomfortable, so I gotta fix it.
Matthew Reeves: We confuse discomfort with danger. We go into a, we go into a threat response, uh, mode, which, like you described with your husband, like anger is a threat response. You know, withdrawal is a threat response, so is fixing it, right? It's all,
Ronda Thorington: yes.
Matthew Reeves: are, there's a num, a number of different kinds of threat responses, but we, we can slow down and recognize, oh, what I'm experiencing is grief.
Grief is normal. Grief is not [00:44:00] dangerous no matter how unpleasant it is.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: And so I can, I don't need to be. Fight or flight or freezer, fawn. Right? I can, I can, I can just be in grief and that's okay. Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: we can be in grief together. Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: Exactly. Exactly. And there's such power in that because we don't, you know, I know for me, I didn't even realize that what I was doing was grieving
Matthew Reeves: Right?
Ronda Thorington: therapist pointed it out to me. She was like, you're grieving. I was like, I am. I was like, oh, I'm,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: then there was such freedom in that like, oh, yep, I'm grieving and that's okay. So
Matthew Reeves: You're being human,
Ronda Thorington: Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: which you don't need to fix.
Ronda Thorington: Look at that. Right, right.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Ronda Thorington: because we have a heart,
Matthew Reeves: Right, right. If, yeah, if we were, yeah, AI doesn't grieve.
Ronda Thorington: Exactly. Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: what makes us human. Um, you know, we're, we're coming up on [00:45:00] time. Um, I wanna ask, um, you know, you as a therapist, I'm sure you often offer toolkits. Um, what, what are the, maybe what's the, maybe the number one tool that you like to hand out, that you find that people find the most, most helpful as they are, you know, living in a family with a loved one?
Um. Maybe also a second question. What is the number one toolkit you give to the people who are receiving help? Um, to, to, to help that relationship flourish and, and not be one dimensional,
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh my goodness. That's such a loaded question. Um, because there's a whole different, a
Matthew Reeves: you have to pick one.
Ronda Thorington: I can go with this. I have to pick one. Okay. Well, so, so one thing I will say is a, and you didn't know this, but I actually have created a toolkit,
Matthew Reeves: Okay. Great.
Ronda Thorington: guide for parents. So,
Matthew Reeves: nobody's gonna believe, I didn't know that they're gonna think I set you up for that, but I really didn't.
Ronda Thorington: I know it planted the question. No, I really [00:46:00] have. It's called the Resilient Parent Toolkit. So, um, uh, yeah, and it's just a, a booklet of resources for folks. Um, but I say, you know, the biggest thing that, um, give that I, uh, give parents is, hmm, I would say one of those strategies around. Creating resilience. So, um, really helping them to, um, set some of those micro boundaries. Um, creating structure and routine, uh, because I think when you have, you know, disability, uh, medical condition, uh, a, you know, a, um, medical complexity. know, you lose all of that often.
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Ronda Thorington: I work with parents around reclaiming that. Um, so, you know, I often tell parents, you know, if you used to, you know, [00:47:00] I don't know if you used to go on vacations before, before your kid got sick, still go on the vacations, it's gonna look a lot different, but it's important that you still go on the vacations. So, so really helping them to kind of. And this is, this sounds so trite, and it's so overused, but figuring out a new normal.
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Ronda Thorington: instead of kind of being in a space of, you know, mourning all that was lost, let's figure out how we can also move forward with what is
Matthew Reeves: Right. And it, yeah, it may, and that vacation may look a lot different for a lot of different reasons. And that's okay to also grieve if you, if something is foreclosed because. I don't know. Your family's finances might be very different than they used to be.
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: that that's okay to grieve too. That's also part of the grieving process.
Yeah,
Ronda Thorington: Exactly. Yep. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: yeah,
Ronda Thorington: Um, so you asked me another question. Now I can't
Matthew Reeves: [00:48:00] yeah. From the perspective of the care recipient, what is, what is maybe the most important tool you hand out or the most effective tool?
Ronda Thorington: Recognizing who they are outside of. Their condition. So recognizing all of their strengths, recognizing all that makes them beautiful. Um, and uh, that's what, a tool. I mean, I guess it's not a specific tool, but that's kind of really where I work with folks so that, you know, what that looks like in a concrete way is, you know, what are you doing, you know, to, what's one thing that you do that brings you joy? You know, do you, you know, and, and do that thing because something totally outside of your condition, so let's make sure you're still engaging in that.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Ronda Thorington: they are not like reduced to [00:49:00] their medical complexity 'cause there's so much more than that.
Matthew Reeves: yeah,
Ronda Thorington: So,
Matthew Reeves: yeah.
Ronda Thorington: yeah.
Matthew Reeves: are not our burdens.
Ronda Thorington: Exactly. Exactly. I think that's a takeaway for today. We are not our burdens.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, that's a internal family systems mantra. Uh, I not, I can't take care. I can't take credit for it. I don't want anybody to think I'm taking credit for it. Um, I. You know, before we wrap up, I, I like to ask everybody who makes an appearance on the podcast, if there's anything else that we haven't covered.
I know there's, there's thousands. There's so much that I, I, we, I could, I could go on and on on this topic. Uh, we haven't talked about self-care, and I think that's a, that's a big one,
Ronda Thorington: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: so we'll have, maybe we'll have you back for a second, for a second conversation. Yeah. Um, but,
Ronda Thorington: Sure.
Matthew Reeves: to wrap today up, is there, what else?
Um. Can you think of that maybe is a concluding message or something that you feel is important to say that we haven't gotten to?
Ronda Thorington: I would say for [00:50:00] caregivers specifically, you matter. You matter. So I think, you know, we kind of tend to push ourselves to the side. no, I gotta take care of, you know, my loved one. Um, that's all that matters in this moment. Um, and what I often say to, to parents and caregivers is, you know, you have to be good or else you're not going to be effective in taking care of your loved one. So you know, your health, your emotional wellbeing, your mental health part of loved one's treatment plan. It's not separate, it's not selfish, it's not minimal. It's important, it's vital because you matter. So.
Matthew Reeves: I love that. As you were talking, I was thinking about what you're saying and, and it's like, and this came up earlier in the conversation too, where you were talking [00:51:00] about how your identity shifted from the, the cookie baking mom to the medical mom
Ronda Thorington: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: and how that felt like. That was not a choice. That was, it was so deep within who you are and so values based for you to take care of your daughter, that it wasn't, it was just reflexive.
Right? It wasn't like you went, I, well, should I take care of my daughter or not? That would, that never crossed your mind. Right?
Ronda Thorington: Right. Or
Matthew Reeves: Of course. So
Ronda Thorington: yeah.
Matthew Reeves: when, when that's, that is that care that you're giving is springing from your own values, that's you. To not take care of you is to not take care of that very value that is serving the one you love.
Right. So, yeah.
Ronda Thorington: Bingo. That's it.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Ronda Thorington: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: care, self-care is not selfish. Um,
Ronda Thorington: exactly.
Matthew Reeves: yeah. And I know that that [00:52:00] also sounds like it's an on, on an embroidered pillow, but that doesn't make it untrue. It's cheesy, but it's not untrue.
Ronda Thorington: Right, right.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Ronda Thorington: but true.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Cheesy but true. Well, Rhonda, I'm, I'm so grateful for this conversation. I mean, it, I want to have you back, uh, because I think there's so many layers to this, uh, that speak to the needs of this audience.
So thank you. All
Ronda Thorington: Oh, you are so welcome. I will be happy to come back.
Matthew Reeves: righty. Thanks so much.
Ronda Thorington: Oh, you're welcome. Mm-hmm.
RECAP
Alex: This is placeholder for generic voiceover.
OUTRO
Matthew Reeves: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Insight Out. You are the reason this podcast exists and we'd love to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. That's [00:53:00] speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. There, you can share your thoughts about today's conversation, suggest a topic for a future episode, or tell us about your experience living with vision loss. Again, that's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Insight Out is produced by Integral Mental Health Services, my private practice that offers psychotherapy for adults in Georgia and disability adjustment and chronic illness counseling nationwide. Visit us at integralmhs.com and you can visit insightoutpod.com to catch up on all the episodes and to find links for subscribing in all the major podcast apps. A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube. Search for the channel, using the handle @inSightOutPod. You can also find us on social media using that same handle. I hope you'll join us for the next episode of inSight Out. Subscribe now in your favorite [00:54:00] podcast app to stay connected. Thanks again for listening.