The White Cane Complexity with Hannah Kleinschmidt COMS CVRT
I'm really excited to introduce you to Hannah Kleinschmidt, an orientation and mobility specialist who brings a unique perspective to her work—she's been on both sides of the O&M experience. Hannah was born with albinism and grew up receiving orientation and mobility training herself, starting in middle school when she first began learning to use a white cane. What began as something she was nervous about and resistant to eventually became her calling. After experiencing firsthand how O&M training transformed her independence and opened up possibilities like attending college and traveling with a guide dog, she decided to dedicate her career to helping others navigate their own journeys with vision loss. Today, she works at a residential rehabilitation facility teaching adults who are adjusting to recent vision loss, and she brings both professional expertise and personal understanding to every lesson.
Understanding Orientation and Mobility: A Conversation with Hannah Kleinschmidt
For many people living with vision loss, few things carry as much emotional weight as the decision to use a white cane. It's a tool that promises independence and safety, yet it also makes your disability visible to the world in a way that can feel vulnerable and exposing. In my recent conversation with Hannah Kleinschmidt, an orientation and mobility specialist, we explored not just the technical aspects of O&M training, but the deeply personal journey that comes with it.
From Student to Instructor
Hannah brings a unique perspective to her work—she's experienced orientation and mobility training from both sides. Born with albinism and legally blind, Hannah began receiving O&M services in middle school. Like many young people adjusting to using a white cane, she was initially resistant. She remembers standing at street corners for long periods, too nervous to cross, and feeling self-conscious about being different from her peers.
But something shifted in high school. Hannah realized that if she wanted the independence she craved—going to college, living on her own, maybe even working with a guide dog—she needed to embrace these skills. That motivation transformed her relationship with O&M training, and eventually inspired her career path. After earning her master's degree in orientation and mobility, she now works at a residential rehabilitation facility helping adults navigate their own adjustments to vision loss.
More Than Just Technical Skills
When I asked Hannah to define orientation and mobility, she broke it down simply: orientation is knowing where you are and where you're going, while mobility is getting there safely. But as our conversation revealed, O&M training encompasses so much more than learning to use a cane or cross a street.
For people born with significant vision loss, O&M instructors must build foundational concepts that sighted children absorb naturally through observation. What does an intersection look like? How many wheels does a car have? Which side of the road do vehicles drive on? These aren't obvious concepts if you've never seen them, and they require explicit teaching through tactile maps, manipulatives, and careful explanation.
For adults who lose vision later in life, the challenge is different. They often have visual memories and understand traffic patterns conceptually—the work becomes adapting those understandings to non-visual techniques. But regardless of when vision loss occurs, the emotional adjustment remains a constant thread throughout the training process.
The Complex Relationship with the White Cane
Hannah's insights about the white cane particularly resonated with me. She described her clients' reactions as spanning a full spectrum—some people are genuinely excited about the independence it offers, while others resist it completely. The cane serves dual purposes: it's a tactile and acoustic sensor that helps you navigate your environment, but it's also a visible signal to others that you have low or no vision.
This visibility can be both helpful and challenging. On one hand, people may be more willing to offer assistance when they see the cane. On the other hand, you might feel exposed, aware that strangers are staring or treating you differently. Hannah emphasized that working through these feelings is completely normal and that it's often a significant accomplishment when someone uses their cane in public for the first time or brings it to work.
What struck me most was Hannah's patient, person-centered approach. She plans her lessons but remains flexible, recognizing when a client needs to process their emotions rather than push through a technical skill. She starts training in safe, familiar environments and gradually builds toward more challenging situations, always being careful not to push someone so far outside their comfort zone that they become overwhelmed.
Building Confidence Through Community
One theme that emerged repeatedly was the power of connection. Hannah shared how meaningful it was for her as a young person to meet others using canes at summer camps and conferences—suddenly she wasn't the only one. Now, working at a residential facility where clients can support each other through shared experiences, she sees that same dynamic play out with adults adjusting to vision loss.
There's something profoundly validating about realizing your struggles, fears, and emotions aren't unique or abnormal—they're part of a common journey that many others have navigated successfully.
Beyond Walking: The Full Scope of O&M
Our conversation covered the breadth of skills that O&M training addresses. Beyond cane techniques and street crossings, Hannah teaches clients how to use public transportation, navigate rideshare apps, and perhaps most importantly, how to ask for help effectively. She emphasized that independence doesn't mean doing everything alone—it means knowing when and how to request assistance in a way that gets you the specific information you need.
Hannah also touched on teaching clients to handle well-meaning but unhelpful assistance. People in public often want to help but may not know how, sometimes grabbing someone's arm and pulling them across the street rather than asking what would be most useful. Learning to set boundaries politely but firmly—to redirect that help into something actually helpful—is an essential skill.
The Reward of Independence Regained
When I asked Hannah about the most rewarding part of her work, her answer was immediate: watching clients achieve meaningful goals and realize they no longer need her. Whether it's successfully crossing a street independently or completing a route to an important destination, those moments of accomplishment make all the challenging work worthwhile.
As someone who also works myself out of a job with my therapy clients, I deeply relate to that satisfaction. There's something special about witnessing someone reclaim their independence and confidence after vision loss has shaken their world.
An Invitation to Learn More
Hannah's final message was one I want to echo: if you're navigating vision loss, you're not alone in this journey. The emotions you're experiencing—the fear, the frustration, the grief, the occasional moments of hope—are all normal parts of the adjustment process. Orientation and mobility training isn't just about learning to get from point A to point B; it's about rebuilding your relationship with independence and discovering that a full, rich life is still possible.
If you'd like to hear our full conversation, I encourage you to listen to the complete episode. Hannah's warmth, expertise, and personal insights offer so much more than I could capture here. And if you have your own experiences with O&M training—or questions about it—I'd love to hear from you at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Matthew Reeves is a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor who specializes in helping people adjust to disability through his practice, Integral Mental Health Services, in Atlanta, Georgia.
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Orientation and mobility specialist Hannah Kleinschmidt shares her journey from receiving O&M training as a young person with albinism to becoming a certified instructor who helps adults adjust to vision loss. Hannah discusses the emotional challenges many people face when first using a white cane, explaining how it serves both as a practical mobility tool and a visible identifier that changes how others interact with you. She walks us through what O&M training involves—from learning to trust the cane and cross streets non-visually to using public transportation and asking for help effectively. Hannah emphasizes that everyone's experience with the cane is different, and she offers insight into how instructors balance technical skill-building with the mental and emotional adjustments that come with vision loss. With candor and compassion, she shares both her personal story and professional perspective on helping people regain independence and confidence.
Topics covered: orientation and mobility, O&M training, white cane, mobility instruction, albinism, legal blindness, low vision, street crossing, public transportation, guide dogs, vision loss adjustment, disability acceptance, independence, pedestrian skills, assistive technology, vision rehabilitation, asking for help, mobility specialist.
ABOUT THE PODCAST
inSight Out is your podcast home for living well with vision loss. Host Matthew Reeves (LPC CRC NCC) is a legally-blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor specializing in helping people thrive while living with disability. Matthew is licensed in Georgia and is a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor.
Please be sure to subscribe to catch every episode. And remember to share the show with others in the blind and low-vision community!
CONNECT WITH US
Podcast Home: https://insightoutpod.com
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©Integral Mental Health Services, LLC
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The following transcript is AI generated and likely contains errors.
[00:00:00]
Hannah Kleinschmidt: For every client, it is a different experience, and I've got a range of people who are really excited about the cane and the, you know, the skills that it gives them and the independence that it can give them up to people who just really don't wanna use it and aren't interested in it. And I think it is definitely a journey and a adjustment process that people go on when they start to use one, and especially when you're using it in public and like if you have some vision or if you don't, like, just knowing like people are staring at me and like, people are acting different because I have this and it's going to, you know, change the way that I interact with the world. Um, but sort of balancing that with like, well, the benefits of it, of like. It can be beneficial for people to know that my vision isn't great because like I might be doing [00:01:00] things in a way that doesn't make sense or I might be asking for help with something and someone's a little more likely to give that to me if they see that I have the cane and they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense you can't see that. That's so I'll help you.
Matthew Reeves: You're listening to Insight Out a podcast about living well with low vision. Maybe you're feeling confused, scared, isolated, or disheartened about a recent vision loss diagnosis, or maybe you've been managing your vision loss for a while and now you want to hear from others about how to continue growing and thriving. Insight Out is your supportive space to find healthy and impactful tools to build and maintain a truly rich and gratifying life with low or no vision.
I'm Matthew Reeves. I'm a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor. I specialize [00:02:00] in helping people adjust to disability through my practice, integral Mental Health Services in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm really glad you're listening.
Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and let others in the low vision community know about the podcast so the word can spread to those who might find it helpful. And now on with today's discussion.
Alex: this is placeholder for generic voiceover.
Matthew Reeves: Hannah, I'm happy to
And I'm happy to have you with, uh, me today for the podcast, um,
work
report orientation and mobility, which is, uh, a subject that
carries a lot of
carries a lot of emotional content with it, but it's also very magical
what you do for a living. So
for a rhythm. So I thought it might be.
really
A really good topic
get
to
on.
hit on,
normalize some of those experiences that people may think that
think that they're on
So I,
So I really appreciate you being, why don't we jump in with
your first
first
with [00:03:00] orientation
orientation and mobility, which will
gets
commonly get working with O
we'll
so
it that way
that way,
shorthand. But what was
but what was your first experie.
m?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, I, um, first started o and m when I was in school, so I, um, have low vision and I received o and m services, um, throughout school.
So I really started. Using, uh, white cane more and, um, having more consistent o and m in like middle school, high school, and, uh, learning how to travel on my own and all of that. Um, and sort of learning more about orientation and mobility around that age.
Matthew Reeves: Okay, and so you were
So you were pretty lonely,
through the process. Uh, would
uh, would you say that
was
that was happening?
at a, a pretty early [00:04:00] age, or is that a pretty common age for people to receive o and m training?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: I'd say, um, a lot of people who have were born with vision loss, um, have o and m from a pretty early age, so it's. Fairly common. And then a lot of people who lose vision later in life will get it, um, or in adulthood. So there's definitely a big, you know, o and m presence in schools and then also for the adult population,
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha. Um,
um,
since you said, since you mentioned
situation.
low vision yourself, what is that
What is.
What, what is your vision condition and, and how has that impacted your life?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, I was born, um, legally blind and my vision has been pretty stable throughout my life. Um, I have albinism, so I have, um. Low vision. Um, it's considered legally blind, but I can see like large print and [00:05:00] see larger objects. Um, when it's outside and there's a lot of glare from the sun, that's difficult and things that are further away are difficult to see.
Um, depth perception, that kind of thing is difficult.
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha. And. When you
you were young
you had been living this
living this
since
since birth, it wasn't.
it wasn't like
Wasn't like something happened
a particular
at a particular moment.
was it
What was it like for you to
guided
guide in towards, or like how did you even find,
receiving ONM training and, and how did you
how did you deal?
the time?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, I had, um, kind of always had vision services since I was a kid, so it was just sort of like, this is what happens. This person comes and takes you from class and you go do the vision stuff. Um, and so I think later, uh, maybe like later. Elementary school, middle school, I sort of like got more of an understanding of what that means and like [00:06:00] that, oh, like okay, I can't see the things that the other kids are seeing, or I need a little more help in these areas.
Um, and in. Middle school is when we started like going off campus for o and m and learning how to cross streets and take public transportation. Um, and so I sort of started learning the other, the things that other kids would have learned or been able to do just with their friends or on their own, um, sort of getting that experience through o and m.
Matthew Reeves: What was it like for you going through that experience? Was that welcome or, uh, challenging? Did it make you feel different in any way? I mean, for a child to go through that is, I imagine, kind of emotionally
Hannah Kleinschmidt: emotionally charged, or what was it like for you? Yeah, I mean, it was. It's difficult and I think helpful. Um, but definitely, you know, when you're different, it's hard when [00:07:00] you're around other kids who don't need extra help or don't have to go do this thing after school that you have to do or don't need a white cane.
Um, then it can be, you know, another thing that you have to explain to kids. And, you know, kids aren't always the most understanding. Um. So I definitely was a shy person and a little, um, you know, anxious and sort of self-conscious about that. Um, but I definitely. Started to see the benefits of it more, I think in high school.
And um, you know, I started to use the white cane more regularly and sort of saw like, oh, okay, like I can travel more safely and more efficiently if I have this, so I'm not gonna be, you know, tripping as much. I can walk faster. Um, so it is beneficial, but it is, you know, it was sort of an emotional [00:08:00] thing to like.
Start to be able to do, especially like using the cane around my friends and like in places where I hadn't before. Um, it's, you know, like another, I guess like a thing that I have to explain to people. And it can be challenging as a kid. Definitely.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Or do you have any memories of, you know, resources or
or support systems or
kind of the ways of
ways of.
it that helped with that? 'cause that is hard for a lot
Part for a lot of people, even adults,
start
start to
onto that
hold onto that white
time. that can be really tough. I'm
tough, curious
at. As somebody who
as somebody who's gonna do it.
an adolescent, what,
What
you used or what you leaned on to help you get through the difficulties of it.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: So my orientation and mobility instructor was very helpful and um, did connect me with some [00:09:00] other people in the like school district who had low vision. Um, and so I got to make some friends that way and do some more like group lessons to meet other people, which was really nice 'cause there wasn't really anyone in my high school, um, that was using a cane or had.
Or was legally blind. Um, but getting to meet other people was cool. I also like would go to like some summer camps or conferences and got to meet other people my age, which was really helpful I think, um, starting to like realize that like, oh, okay, there are other people who are doing the same thing and this isn't so weird or like awkward, uh, when everyone else is also going through that.
It was really helpful.
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha. So just yourself reflected in in a Community
that that can be hard find
it's now than when I was
now than when I was young.
we now, but [00:10:00] now but Ye h. My name
was hard for
was hard for me. And it sounds like you, for
able to get
were able to get connected with some other,
uh, were going through similar things, so that's great. How did
how did your
with
experience with O
start
start to.
Or what was
Or what was the path for you
from
to go from being an adolescent to
training to be. An adult
adult
certified to
certified to
and mobility.
changeability? What?
me what the journey
Tell me Li journey.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, I, um. You know, definitely when I was younger, started with not really liking o and m or being very nervous about crossing streets and like, I don't wanna do this.
I'm not gonna get on the bus. Um, I'm going to. Stand at the street corner for a very long time without crossing the street. Um, and then sort of when I got into high school, like realizing like, okay, I do wanna go to [00:11:00] college and I do wanna live on my own. And um, like, oh, I could get a guide dog. Like that would be really fun.
I really like dogs and I'd love to be able to travel with a guide dog. So that was a big motivation for me in increasing my skills and like, okay, well I have to be able to travel. Well and independently if I wanna do this. Um, so that sort of helped change my perspective on o and MA little bit. Um, and like, okay, well I need to do this thing to be able to get that.
So I got a guide dog, um, my senior year of high school and then went to college with a dog and I. Um, lived off campus and I commuted to school and I was, you know, taking the bus and the train and doing all the things that I wanted to be able to do. And I had a really great experience, um, with my o and m instructor and getting me to be able to be at that place.
Um, and then sort of in high school, [00:12:00] in, sorry, sorry. In college I realized like. I think I wanna do something in vision services and I would like to work with people who are visually impaired. And I was thinking like what it, the options? And I was most impacted personally by o and m and being able to be independent.
And I felt like that really allowed me to like do what I wanna be able to do and live on my own. Um, and I really enjoyed, you know. Being outside, walking around. I didn't wanna be like in an office all day. So that appealed to me. Uh, so then when I, near the end of college, I applied for grad school and went right into grad school for o and m
Matthew Reeves: So it requires a, a master's
Master's degree.
to,
Yes.
that
Have that certification. Is that right? Yes. They have
Yeah. So you not
not only
went through the
went through the high [00:13:00] school experience and in college.
you also had to get a, a graduate degree. Uh, that's, that's a lot
It like it's a lot of schools.
what do you
What you feel like
That set you
set
Were, did you, did
you up would, did that experience of all that education
you anything that's, that you feel you were able to bring into the o and m experience?
It's a lot to achieve.
to achieve?
I'm really curious to
I'm really curious to know what, what
going through all those years of
all those years of school did for you
it helped you in any way.
and helping you.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Um.
Going through school was helpful for me and I enjoyed school a lot. Um, I think it, you know. Gave me the opportunity to meet other people and, um, learn a lot and, um, get the, yeah, like the college grad school experience, which, you know, in, when I'm teaching now, I do work [00:14:00] with high school students or college students or people who are wanting to go to college.
So sort of able to talk from my experience about accommodations and what might be helpful for them, um, to sort of. This is the kind of things that you might wanna be doing.
That
Matthew Reeves: So that
helps you kind of put yourself in the, in the shoes
shoes,
training that you can serve
so that you can,
great. I love that. Um,
um, so what was
and
what, and
is a
maybe this is a good moment to pause
what ONM is. 'cause I want to ask some
I wanna ask, what's
questions
specific questions about it, but let's get a broad definition.
Uh, what is
What is o and m? What is it? What is its purpose?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: So O and M is orientation and mobility. So I usually define it by orientation is how do you know where you are and where you're going?
And then mobility is how you're gonna get there safely. So [00:15:00] it's teaching cane skills and street crossing skills and how to use public transportation. Um, and how do you. Know where you are and find your destination from, you know, inside your own home to going to school or to work. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Okay, and
And
I imagine that
that that process,
I don't know, you
well, I don't know, you tell me, is that for a young person that
adult
an adult or somebody who is
dealt with
dealt with being lost their whole life versus somebody
acquired? Uh, some vision loss. Like
Loss, like
different,
different? Is it from person to person or is it pretty consistent?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: There are some similarities. I would say with younger kids. It's a lot of concept development and teaching them just like what? Things are, um, because if you can't see something, then you have to be taught it [00:16:00] explicitly. So like other kids learn from seeing each other do stuff, but you're sort of teaching very specific concepts and skills to younger kids and it, um, can take a lot longer, like your whole school education.
Um, and then with older adults or people who lose their vision later, you're able to use some of their. Visual memories and sort of past experience with like, well, I know what a intersection looks like and I know traffic patterns. So just applying that to how do you do that now, non visually, uh, but a lot of the skill.
Matthew Reeves: example, if somebody has never had vision or if they're young enough that they haven't experience being a
Being a pedestrian,
having
you're having to,
and educate
to educate using words, experiences, what a, what an intersection.
It's not something
Not something that, that, that concept is not built in.
of build that
Build that annually.
that
Am I hearing that right?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah. Basically, yes. [00:17:00] So, right. If you are born with no vision, you don't know the concepts of yeah, what an intersection is or even like what a car is, what does the whole car look like?
Like you just know your one seat in the car or just the side of it. Uh, but like how many wheels does the car have and how does it move? And, um, so there's a lot of, you know, tactile. Manipulatives and tactile maps and you know, using the analogies of like, well, you're walking in the hallway and you're always gonna walk on the right side.
And that's sort of how that relates to, you know, think you're, um, trusting a street and what the traffic is doing.
Matthew Reeves: Oh, I hadn't even thought about the idea that for, for some people
For some people, you're never had
to
opportunity to see traffic patterns.
may not be
It may not be obvious, they may never
even come across the
come across the idea.
on a
Driving on a certain side of the road and that,
the consequences
consequences
of safety and how
of that,
how to navigate that. So you have to [00:18:00] teach that
the scratch.
but for
Um, but for people
sight
have lost sight later in life, maybe they've driven for decades.
you, that's,
That's, that's so clear
past it and go on to other ideas. Yeah. What, what
What,
once you have
once you have
uh, the
in the mind of your student, what, what are other.
kind of broad categories that you
teach that
that unlock independence, sort of.
I imagine confidence is
confidence is
important
most important aspects or maybe one of the most important outcomes
training.
the training. I'd love to hear
you
about how you get from a place of uncertainty and unfamiliarity to a place of confidence.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, definitely. Um, one of the sort of beginning skills is just how to use the cane and how it works and being able to trust the cane as you're walking. So either you have low vision and you're sort of trying to use the vision that you [00:19:00] have and or you're have no vision and you're just walking like with someone else all the time, or you know, only in a familiar area.
Uh, it can be difficult to. Trust that the cane is going to find what it needs to find and that you're not gonna walk off a curb or on the stairs or something. Um, so getting people confident in their cane skills and that they're doing it correctly and practicing with that takes time. And then once they're, you know, able to do that and able to get around a familiar environment and they're confident, they're sort of moving that too.
Um. Street crossings and sidewalk travel and locating like store or their work or something
Matthew Reeves: Since you brought up
that you brought up the cane. I, I'd love to
to
a few minutes to talk about that because
I've,
I experienced it with so many of my clients with the cane.
Some people
Some people love
introduced to the cane for the first time[00:20:00]
first time
incredible tool
credible tool that just.
up
Opens up the vistas for,
and then for
and then for other people, the can represents something difficult,
not a great
not a great relationship.
Talk to me about your experience
your clients
with your clients.
cane and what the cane is
What the can is there for its role and what some of the challenges might be.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: For every client, it is a different experience, and I've got a range of people who are really excited about the cane and the, you know, the skills that it gives them and the independence that it can give them up to people who just really don't wanna use it and aren't interested in it. And I think it is definitely a journey and a adjustment process that people go on when they start to use one, and especially when you're using it in public and like if you have some vision or if you don't, like, just knowing like people [00:21:00] are staring at me and like, people are acting different because I have this and it's going to, you know, change the way that I interact with the world. Um, but sort of balancing that with like, well, the benefits of it, of like. It can be beneficial for people to know that my vision isn't great because like I might be doing things in a way that doesn't make sense or I might be asking for help with something and someone's a little more likely to give that to me if they see that I have the cane and they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense you can't see that. That's so I'll help you.
Matthew Reeves: So
So
of the
one of the roles of the cane, it goes beyond
the
just the
to be
self to be able to help to be that like tactile.
sensor
Sensor of what's going on in the world. It's also, it serves another function of
kind of identifying yourself
yourself,
around
people around,
um,
um, which can be both very helpful and
difficult.
difficult.
people?
you help [00:22:00] people
that
through that difficult
and,
kind,
is that normal
normal
are
for people who are going through and then
some really
to have some really strong hitting about this and on
able to address that and
address that process?
experience.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, it's definitely, in my experience, it's very normal, um, to have a lot of emotions about using the cane, especially for the first time, and sort of to work through that in o and m and sometimes people will only use it indoors or only in a familiar place and that it's a, you know, it's a big accomplishment when people are able to use it in a new environment or bring it to work for the first time, or explain too.
People at school like this is what this is for.
Definitely an adjustment period. And when. I work with adults who come to a residential rehab facility, and so they're able to, um, have other clients that they can talk to [00:23:00] and, um. Hear each other's experiences and sort of work together. And, uh, I think having that support from each other is very helpful.
Um, but also, like, you know, I have a, when I come to an o and m lesson, I have a plan of what we're gonna do and stuff, but I am also very flexible of like, you know, if you need to just like. Talk about your feelings and like, I know this is a lot and it's okay. It's very normal to have these feelings and just sort of, um, reassure people that like, this is normal.
Like you're at a, this stage in your journey and that's okay. And I had a lot of other people have the same types of feelings. Um, and you know, we're gonna work through it slowly, right? Starting in, uh, either like at the center where you know, everyone. Also blind, or they're an instructor and this is a very safe place to start.
And then we will move, you know, to a public street and stuff eventually. But [00:24:00] sort of making it a slower process, I think is helpful.
Matthew Reeves: Got it. And
And
when
when
your
your clients discover that you result
through an
through
m and
and
those skills, does that come
does that come into play at all? Is that helpful?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: I think so, I think I try to, you know, be very upfront about like, this is what my vision is.
Like I will have a cane with me, or you might see me with my guide dog. Um, and I'm happy to answer any questions. Uh, but, you know, I know their experience is different than what I am, what I've gone through, and I'm happy to share my inputs if they. Ask for it. Um, but I think for some people it can be helpful.
Like, okay, like this person is doing something that like, I, I can do it too. Like, this is a, a thing that I can accomplish. Um, you know, having sort of, uh. [00:25:00] I mean, I guess like for younger kids it can be helpful to have like almost like a role model of like, okay, this is what I can accomplish. I could go to college and I, you know, I can get around by myself and take the bus and all of that.
Um, so I think that can be helpful.
Matthew Reeves: What would you say to the person who maybe has been
Maybe it's been living religion loss
for a long
schedule a long time.
feel like
I feel like we've,
in hand.
well
pretty confident
confident.
and they're,
And they're, I
buy
mean, you can buy a can on Amazon.
to
You don't have to go through
In order to
in order to have these tools. What do you say to that person about what they might possibly be missing by thought?
training?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: I would say that to think about that, um.
Matthew Reeves: I.[00:26:00]
Hannah Kleinschmidt: I would say that o and m is
beneficial, um, for a lot of people in helping them to. Travel efficiently and safely, and maybe you're doing, you are traveling in a way that seems okay right now, but isn't necessarily the most efficient way. And you know, I definitely understand that it. O and M services aren't available in a lot of places, or they're very hard to access, um, depending on where you live.
And it's definitely not easy for everyone to get o and m, but if you are able to, you know, even get some instruction, it can help you be a little bit more independent and like independence looks different for everyone. And even if that's just. How do you travel safely in your own home and down the driveway to get the [00:27:00] mail?
Like, kind of think it can be beneficial. Um, and I think there's some level of, you know, instruction that could be helpful for most people.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, I'm reminded of that expression. You don't know what you dont. Know, and so I'm kind of hearing
I to hear that
what
underneath what you're saying.
if,
If,
haven't
if you haven't been through this change, we don't know what you're missing. Know what?
useful information might be available to you. And I'm
And I'm also noticing one of the,
is we talk about the efficiency
the efficiency of it
You know, the, the confidence of it. It's all, and it's also
and also the safety of it. Just
that you are
that we're taking every opportunity to say,
seems really important too. Um,
um,
question
one last question about the can.
there different
Are there different kind?
and what, how does that
How does that put you into it?
what's the right
What's the right choice?
what, what do we, what do we need
What do we need to know about the cane itself?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, there are lots of different [00:28:00] kinds of canes, um, and different cane tips and there are, you know, newer canes that have all sorts of features and everything.
Um, if you work with a mobility instructor, they will fit you for the right size of cane. Um, it's supposed to be a specific height, um, that way you're. Um, the cane is interacting and finding obstacles before you do, and, and then you have an amount of reaction time, uh, before you walk into something. Um, and there's different cane tips.
Uh, there are lighter ones and ones that roll and ones that, um, people will use to tap on the ground. That way you can hear more of your surroundings and kind of the. Sound of that, like bouncing off of things around you, um, or ones that are bigger and that roll on the ground. That way you're not, um, like getting stuck in all of the cracks and everything in the sidewalk.
Um, but. [00:29:00] Some fold, some don't fold. It's sort of a personal decision. I would say like an o and m instructor is probably the best person to like initially fit you for a cane and sort of be like, okay, it should be about this height. These are the options. Um, but then, you know, people could definitely do their research and decide like what material.
There's, you know, all different types of materials and you know, if you decide you want a longer one or one that doesn't fold or you know all the options.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. You know, and here's
You know, and question I anticipate asking,
so I'm going to, I've, I know that
I know that some folks who
kind of bling their cane
their can
it and all of that, but
all of that, but I also know that one of, like you said, one of the big values
is very recognizable by other
by other people.
are your thoughts
What are your thoughts on
personalizing a cane and making
by
it your own? By decorating it or painting it or
coloring
color?
way?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, I think it's really cool, um, to, you know, personalize a [00:30:00] cane and make it your own and, you know, if that makes it easier to use or you're more confident, it's more of an accessory that you're using. I think that's really neat. Um, or just for identification, if you're around other people who use canes, sometimes you just need to find which one's yours.
Matthew Reeves: can is mine.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Um, but yeah, I would say the. Main thing is that it is still a white cane and that, that it's recognizable as the majority of the cane is white. And there are, um, laws in a lot of states that the cane should be white. Um, that way if a driver sees that they're supposed to stop if you have a white cane.
Um, so that, yeah.
Matthew Reeves: that's great information. That should be a law nationwide. We should always
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: the, the right of way for
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: whether we're in a crosswalk or not. not to
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yes. Not to say.
Matthew Reeves: assume that we can just cross the road at any point, but, but yeah, I like the idea that [00:31:00] the cane gives you a little bit of, uh, of privilege in that way.
That's great.
Yeah. Yeah.
as we're talking about being a pedestrian, does o and m training also
So,
Um,
um, training for friends and loved ones,
how to guide
how.
what's the role of, for o and m in that way.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Definitely, yeah, it can definitely include, um, instruction in how to be a guide for someone. Um, if you live with people or you know, you're working with someone a lot, and ONM can explain, you know, what is proper human guide and how that works and what it should look like, and also training the. Person who's blind, how to train other people in it.
Um, and explaining like what this is what I need, um, and how to do it. But yeah, definitely, um, there's training for, you know, loved ones and family and everything about how to do, do that. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Um, what are the. [00:32:00] In terms of being a pedestrian, what are the biggest obstacles? What are
Goals. What are the, we talked about some of the emotional aspects.
but in terms of the practical, what are the, um, aspects of the
Aspects of the training that people
the hardest time
hardest time with or feel is
That,
difficult, but that takes that extra bit of
help and, and assistance and guidance and
guidance, and mentorship to help get past the hurdle
to towards more independence?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: As far as like an actual like skill that we're teaching. Um, I would say learning how to. Non visually cross the street and listen for traffic patterns and to cross safely and straight across, um, can be a challenge.
You're using a lot of your auditory skills when you're doing that, and it can be. Challenging for a lot of people [00:33:00] to only rely on the, the sound of the cars and like listening for what that sounds like and how far away from the cars am I while I'm crossing. And you're maintaining your cane skills while you're doing it, but you're focused on what you're hearing and you know the traffic patterns and everything
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, while doing
while doing some,
if you get it
if you get it wrong, the consequences could be.
that's, that's, that's high stakes, uh, draining. So
Training,
that is dawn.
it's daunting.
for, for certain folks,
Certain folks, maybe for other folks, it's, it's
straightforward.
straightforward. They just kind of jump right into it. But
for a lot of people that would be pretty, uh, intimidating. do you, do
you do, you, do you,
what do you
what do you bring to the table to help people bring that,
that they can kind of relax
relax
and
it,
as they're building those
building new skills little by little?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: There's definitely always an element of being dangerous every time you [00:34:00] cross a street. Um, but we definitely try to work up to more difficult crossings and, um, starting with an area that's very quiet and we're going to do it.
Sighted guide. So I'm gonna cross the street with you. You're gonna hold my arm the whole time up to, you know, okay. We're gonna do it together. We'll, I'll walk next to you. Um, so providing a lot of support, um, and or just, you know, we're gonna stand on the street corner and we're gonna talk about the traffic patterns and what's going on.
And when would you cross, if you were going to, we're not gonna do it today, but like hypothetically, what would that look, when would you cross. Which is an important skill of just like making that decision. 'cause a lot of people are used to like crossing with someone else. They're like, oh, my mom always tells me when I'm gonna cross.
That kind of thing. Um, but, and definitely being aware of people's, like where they are mentally and emotionally at the time. 'cause if you are, [00:35:00] you know, overwhelmed, you're not gonna be able to. Do this efficiently and really focus on what you need to do. So like it's okay to take a step back and we can work on this another day and it's all right.
It is definitely overwhelming and it's a lot for people, but you know,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, but you never, uh, what I'm hearing is that you make it a practice to
practice
take people too far beyond their comfort zone. You're always gonna
you're always gonna do there is
so that they. Or
so that not, so that overwhelm doesn't become. P
it. It's, it's something you, you let them
let them
of go and
go
slowly,
hill.
uh, so that they remain
They would
a little
maybe a little like,
There's always gonna be
yeah.
discomfort, but but not so uncomfortable that it's, uh, crippling. That's great. so
Um, so we talked a lot about
the pedestrian
pedestrian and walking and we've mostly focused on street
street crossings and
crossings and
I assume a lot of these
doing a lot of these skills and flying to rural areas as well.
uh,
But, uh, what about.[00:36:00]
non
Non pedestrian
uh,
is
for example, public transit.
transit, or the
question I
question I have is about
what door you're going
what you're able
get to
get to the
final destination. What are the, what are
What are the, what are the other
pedestrian work,
or
categories
that categories that you focus
on?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, definitely. Fortunately I live in an area with a good amount of public transportation, so we have options for buses and the subway commuter rail train. Uh, so we definitely, you know, if people are going to be using that at home or. Uh, train them how to use it or just expose them to like, this is what you would do.
How would you look up a bus route? Um, so if you have the technology skills to get on the computer and look up the bus schedule and then, you know, communicate with the driver, is there, you know, are there audible announcements on the bus? How are you gonna know when you're getting off all of that? Um. And then [00:37:00] another skill is, you know, asking for assistance if you need it.
And how do you do that efficiently and how do you find someone if you can't see them? And you know, having ready, like, these are the questions I need to ask and this is how I'm going to do it. Um, 'cause that's, you know, sometimes if you're going somewhere that you've never been before, your GPS might get you most of the way there, but then you're not exactly sure which door you're going in.
So you're like, I'm just gonna go in and ask and hopefully, you know, somebody can give me directions if I'm, I need to go one more door over and, um. Part of that is being able to ask for the type of information that you need. So if somebody says, oh, it's just down that way, oh, just turn left over there.
You're like, well, I know. I need to know exactly what you're talking about. Can you give me these specific instructions? That way you can get the information that you're looking for,
Matthew Reeves: So it's not always about the skill of
skill of achieving something
It's
your own, it's.[00:38:00]
of soliciting the help that
the help that you need, soliciting it in the way that's most helpful to you,
uh, which requires
which requires some being assertive.
and, and all of that. So you help people through that process. Is that,
That,
first of all, am I getting
first of all, am I getting that right
that,
back?
how,
How,
difficult
difficult is that for, for folks and
to ask
begin to ask for help? For a lot of people asking for help with a real.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, definitely. No, that's definitely correct. Um, that's a lot of what o and m is, is that being okay with asking for help. And that was one of the things that was difficult for me as a kid and like being like, okay, I'd rather walk around the grocery store for half an hour.
Before I ask someone for help instead of, you know, doing the more efficient thing. 'cause I am anxious about talking to people. So that could definitely be a lot of people's experience. But, um, some people are just like, okay, like, I need help. I'm gonna find someone and I'm [00:39:00] gonna stand here and call out for someone until they come and help me.
Uh, which is great Ed. Some people are very. Fearless about that, and I think that's really cool. I think, you know, that's one of the things that the white cane can be helpful with. Sometimes people will just come up to you and like. Do you need help? Are you okay? What's going? Like, where do you need to go?
Which can be nice. And also, you know, sometimes people don't know exactly how to provide assistance or they might be being too helpful, um, which, you know, is another thing to deal with. But, um. Yeah, I think sometimes I'll do a lesson with like two people together and so they'll go up and ask for assistance together.
And that can be a little easier if you've got somebody with you or like modeling that for someone. Like, okay, we're gonna, I'm gonna go with you. I'm gonna be the person talking this time and maybe you have one question that you're gonna ask or next time we're gonna be the person to ask the question. So like these, this is sort of the script of what you're gonna say
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha. You touched on something
sounds something.
[00:40:00] that comes up a
Comes up a lot my work, but is
trying to.
trying to
when people
when they are provided their help that wasn't asked for or
coming in the wrong
wrong
uh, does,
is, did your work
address
address that and how to,
how to interface with
how to interface with folks that are helping in a way that's not help social.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: I think that's one of the things that I try to address. I think most of the time people in the public are trying to be helpful.
They want to help where they can, but sometimes you know you don't need help or they're not providing it the way that you would like to. So maintaining, I try to. You know, teach clients, like maintaining in your safety and knowing like, okay, this person's just trying to be helpful, but I really don't want them to grab my arm and pull me across the street and how to deal with that.
Um, but also, you know, most people don't wanna be like. [00:41:00] Unfriendly. So, you know, responding like nicely, like, oh no thank you, I'm good. Or actually, could you, could I grab your arm? Could I hold onto your elbow instead of you holding me? But also, you know, having that, um, sort of firm boundary of like, I'm gonna say this in a way that's assertive still, and I'm, you know, not, um, sometimes people want to just do something quickly and not necessarily ask like how they can be most.
Helpful or they've never met a blind person, so they don't know like what help they should be giving. Um, so sort of part of it is educating people about that.
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha. Are there any
Is there any
talked about.
talk about
training
training,
uh, kind of social
social training, how to interface
talked
people or talking about.
you know, bus and rail
And rail systems and
into that, although we haven't
that,
that in great detail, as I imagine that gets
I imagine [00:42:00] that gets pretty,
Um, what
um, what are, are there any other categories you
touched on that
touched on that I
about?
kind of thought about?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: One of the newer things is I do a lot of training around like how to use Uber and ride share apps, which is related to.
Public transportation, but you know, interacting with the driver and how do you find the driver and using the app and all that. And you know, some people don't want you to bring your guide dog in the car. And how do you deal with all of that?
Matthew Reeves: I've, yeah, I've heard that there's recently been. Some legal activity on that front in terms of guide dogs in, in ride shares. I, this isn't a legal podcast, so I don't, I don't want to give legal advice, but, um, would
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: people to, uh, assume that it is their right to bring a guide dog into a rideshare or any public transportation infrastructure at all? [00:43:00] Is that, is that your understanding?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Yeah, that's, so that's my understanding of the laws is that any or most public places you are able to bring your dog into, including ride shares. And my understanding is that's Uber and Lyft's policy around service dogs. Uh, but it's definitely, I would, it's, it's difficult. Um, each driver, you know, will.
Handle it differently. And some of them, even though they might be aware of the policy, still really don't want a dog with them. So, you know, sometimes people will text the driver in advance like, Hey, I have my service dog with me. And you know, sometimes the driver still like, don't wanna take the dog. Um, but there is a.
Way to report that to Uber or Lyft. Uh, 'cause it is, you know, against their policy.
Matthew Reeves: Okay. So you can advocate for yourself if you encounter a [00:44:00] problem with that. Um, okay, so that covers ride shares, um,
Um,
are there any other
are there any other categories that
but if, but if there's not, we can move on.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: I think that like broadly covers most of it. There's a lot of stuff that we teach. Um, but yeah, I think that's good.
Matthew Reeves: Okay. What, um, since you've been doing this for a few years now, um, and you spent a lot of
A lot of time getting to this place with this,
what has surprised you? Now that
you?
some time in the field, um, what,
What, what is
surprise
by surprising terms,
of, of the experience of
experience training OandM? ?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Well, I would say that my experience, um, each client is different and I think they surprise me in their own ways each time we have [00:45:00] lessons, but just the variety of people that I get to meet and work with and how. Motivated a lot of people are, especially adults with recent vision loss. Um, to learn and to be independent again, and to do all of the things that I'm asking them to do, even though it's really hard and it can be very emotional and exhausting.
Um, I'd say just the, the motivation that people have is really cool and to see that.
That's great. what?
What, what is the
most
most
part of the
part of your job?
Love when I get to work on a route or something that's really meaningful for people. And then they get excited about being able to do it and like they've seen the amount of work that they've put into it and [00:46:00] like it's so exciting. Like they're able to cross the street or they've made it, you know, safely to their destination and they're doing it on their own and they don't need me anymore.
And I think that's really cool to be able to see.
Matthew Reeves: That's something you and I have in common as a therapist. I love working
I love working myself out of it. General.
it's a great feeling, so I can relate to that. Um, we wrap
Before we wrap up, I just
for you to offer
to offer any,
that
anything that I may have not
Anything
about. Anything you'd like for this.
Of people
People
either are
who there are blind or location, or who report
a blind or low
blind or looking to
to know
know about O and f.
what, what are your, what are your final
Your final message?
Hannah Kleinschmidt: I think, um, I'm just happy to be able to have this conversation. I think it's really important and the sort of more emotional mental health part of o and m is something that I think we all deal with a [00:47:00] lot in the profession and I think having more discussions about it is important and I hope that, you know, people.
Know that they're not alone in this and that they're going through the process just like a lot of other people are. And their, you know, their experiences are not, you know, abnormal. Um, and I hope people have learned, you know, a little bit more about what o and m is and kind of some of the things that we work on.
Matthew Reeves: Great. Well, thanks for, thanks for sharing
Thanks for sharing
and
Hannah Kleinschmidt: your knowledge
Matthew Reeves: experience both
professionally
Hannah Kleinschmidt: professionally and your life story.
Matthew Reeves: I
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Uh, I love all those. I love it when those intersect.
Matthew Reeves: a great thing. So
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Great thing. So thanks, uh,
Matthew Reeves: all of that,
hearing all of that. Thanks for being with us.
Hannah Kleinschmidt: Thanks. Of course.
Alex: This is placeholder for generic voiceover.
Matthew Reeves: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Insight Out. You are the reason this podcast exists and we'd love to hear from you. [00:48:00] You can leave us a voice message at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. That's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. There, you can share your thoughts about today's conversation, suggest a topic for a future episode, or tell us about your experience living with vision loss. Again, that's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Insight Out is produced by Integral Mental Health Services, my private practice that offers psychotherapy for adults in Georgia and disability adjustment and chronic illness counseling nationwide. Visit us at integralmhs.com and you can visit insightoutpod.com to catch up on all the episodes and to find links for subscribing in all the major podcast apps. A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube. Search for the [00:49:00] channel, using the handle @inSightOutPod. You can also find us on social media using that same handle. I hope you'll join us for the next episode of inSight Out. Subscribe now in your favorite podcast app to stay connected. Thanks again for listening.