Understanding Guide Dogs with Gretchen Fisher Orr
Gretchen Fisher Orr has spent her career helping blind and low vision individual gain grater independence. First, as an Orientation and Mobility Instructor and later by working in the fascinating world of guide dogs. She’s the perfect person to explain how these wonderful animals help to make a life with low vision more adaptable in a sighted world.
Guide Dogs: Beyond the Misconceptions - A Conversation with Gretchen Fisher Orr
When I first started planning this episode of Insight Out, I knew I was venturing into territory where I had more questions than answers. Guide dogs have always fascinated me, but like many people, I realized I had plenty of misconceptions about what they actually do and how they work. That's why I was so grateful to sit down with Gretchen Fisher Orr, a certified guide dog mobility instructor with over two decades of experience at Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation.
The Path to Human-Animal Partnership
Gretchen's journey into the guide dog world began through her family's involvement with Lions Clubs, which are major supporters of blindness-related services. What started as curiosity about "the junction where people and animals work together" evolved into a career that has spanned both sides of mobility training – she's not only a guide dog instructor but also holds a master's degree in orientation and mobility.
This dual expertise gives her a unique perspective on something I hadn't fully appreciated before our conversation: guide dogs are not a replacement for mobility skills, but rather a specialized tool that works alongside them.
Clearing Up the Definitions
One of the most valuable parts of our discussion centered on the distinctions between service animals, guide dogs, and emotional support animals – terms that are often confused in public discourse.
Guide dogs are a specialized type of service dog, trained to perform specific tasks like guiding around obstacles, stopping at stairs, and helping their handler navigate safely through the world. Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, true service animals (which are almost exclusively dogs, with rare exceptions for miniature horses) can accompany their handlers anywhere the public is allowed to go.
Emotional support animals, on the other hand, exist primarily within housing law under the Fair Housing Act, allowing people to have companion animals in rental situations where pets might otherwise be prohibited. They don't have the same public access rights as service dogs and don't require specific task training.
The Reality of Guide Dog Work
Perhaps the biggest misconception Gretchen helped me understand is the idea that guide dogs somehow replace the need for orientation and mobility training. The reality is quite different – and much more interesting.
As Gretchen explained, "You are the pilot. You have to know where you're going. You have to know how to get there." The dog's job is to navigate obstacles safely, but the human partner makes all the navigational decisions, including the crucial determination of when it's safe to cross a street.
This partnership dynamic fascinated me. Guide dogs provide what Gretchen called a "problem-solving partner," but they also require their handlers to give up some of the tactile information that comes from white cane travel. It's not simply an upgrade – it's a trade-off that works better for some people and situations than others.
The Training Journey
The process of creating a guide dog team is remarkably complex, involving multiple stages and countless people. It starts with breeding programs specifically designed to produce dogs with the right temperament for guide work – animals that are confident in public spaces, resilient in learning, and comfortable working closely with humans under various pressures.
Volunteer puppy raisers play an absolutely crucial role, dedicating over a year to raising these puppies with specific training protocols. As Gretchen put it, "No guide dog school exists without the puppy raisers." The emotional commitment these volunteers make – raising a puppy they know they'll eventually give up – struck me as both heartbreaking and incredibly generous.
After puppy raising comes formal training, which at Fidelco lasts six months and includes rigorous evaluation processes, including assessments where trainers work under blindfolds to ensure the dogs can truly guide someone who cannot see.
Finding the Right Match
What surprised me most was learning how individualized the matching process is. Different guide dog schools work with different breeds, use different training methods, and serve different populations. Some specialize in specific needs, like working with people who have hearing impairments or mobility challenges in addition to vision loss.
Gretchen emphasized that there's no "best" school or "best" dog – it's all about finding the right fit for each person's lifestyle, work requirements, and personal preferences. The application process involves extensive conversations, in-person interviews, and careful consideration of factors like living situation, activity level, and long-term goals.
The Ongoing Partnership
I was also struck by the long-term support that quality guide dog schools provide. The relationship doesn't end when the dog is placed – schools like Fidelco offer ongoing support, regular check-ins, and assistance with any challenges that arise. They're also there for one of the most difficult aspects of guide dog partnership: retirement and the end of the working relationship.
The bond between guide dog handlers and their dogs is intensely personal. As Gretchen noted, people often spend more time with their guide dog than with any human in their life. The retirement process – whether due to age, health issues, or changing needs – requires careful consideration and ongoing support.
A Different Kind of Independence
What struck me most about my conversation with Gretchen was her perspective on independence itself. She emphasized that people don't need guide dogs to be independent, and that her role is simply to help people explore "a different kind of independence" – one that might align with their personal goals and lifestyle.
This humility and person-centered approach resonated deeply with me. Too often, discussions about disability and assistive technology focus on what people can't do rather than on expanding options for how they might choose to live their lives.
The Bigger Picture
As our conversation wound down, Gretchen reflected on what keeps her motivated in this work: being part of something that allows people to meet their own goals, whatever those might look like. Whether working in admissions, training dogs, or providing ongoing support to guide dog teams, she sees herself as part of a larger mission to expand possibilities for independence and self-determination.
Listening to her talk about watching a newly trained guide dog team walk away, no longer needing her assistance, I was reminded of the best kind of helping relationship – one that ultimately makes itself unnecessary.
Looking Forward
This conversation challenged many of my assumptions about guide dogs and left me with a much deeper appreciation for the complexity, dedication, and individualization that goes into these partnerships. It's not just about dogs helping people get around – it's about expanding choices, fostering independence, and creating bonds that enrich both human and canine lives.
For anyone considering whether a guide dog might be part of their future, Gretchen's advice was clear: start with orientation and mobility training, talk to multiple schools, ask lots of questions, and remember that this decision is about finding the right fit for your unique situation and goals.
If you're interested in learning more about guide dogs, I encourage you to listen to our full conversation. Gretchen's expertise and passion for this work shine through in ways that my summary can only begin to capture.
You can find more episodes of Insight Out at insightoutpod.com, and connect with us on social media @insightoutpod. If you have thoughts about this episode or suggestions for future topics, we'd love to hear from you at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
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ABOUT THIS EPISODE
In this episode of insight Out, host Matthew Reeves interviews Gretchen Fisher Orr (GDMI, COMS), an expert from the Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation, to discuss the world of guide dogs. They explore the emotional and practical aspects of training and working with guide dogs, the differences between service animals and emotional support animals, and the process of matching dogs with people who are blind or have low vision. Gretchen also shares her personal journey in this field and the rewarding moments of seeing guide dog teams thrive independently.
International Guide Dog Federation: https://www.igdf.org.uk/
Fidelco: https://fidelco.org/
ABOUT THE PODCAST
inSight Out is your podcast home for living well with vision loss. Host Matthew Reeves (LPC CRC NCC) is a legally-blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor specializing in helping people thrive while living with disability. Matthew is licensed in Georgia and is a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor.
Please be sure to subscribe to catch every episode. And remember to share the show with others in the blind and low-vision community!
CONNECT WITH US
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©Integral Mental Health Services, LLC
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The following transcript is AI generated and likely contains errors.
COLD OPEN
[00:00:00]
Gretchen Fisher Orr: it became that my favorite part was, after training the dog, my favorite part was, um, maybe doing a placement. At the end of that placement, realizing that the guide dog team didn't need me anymore, my job as an instructor had become obsolete. I would watch them walk off down the sidewalk and hang back a block and watch them go. And it was clear I was, I was not needed. And I loved that day that nobody needed me anymore.
INTRO
Matthew Reeves: You're listening to Insight Out a podcast about living well with low vision. Maybe you're feeling confused, scared, isolated, or disheartened about a recent vision loss diagnosis, or maybe you've been managing your vision loss for a while and now you want to hear from others about how to continue [00:01:00] growing and thriving. Insight Out is your supportive space to find healthy and impactful tools to build and maintain a truly rich and gratifying life with low or no vision.
I'm Matthew Reeves. I'm a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor. I specialize in helping people adjust to disability through my practice, integral Mental Health Services in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm really glad you're listening.
Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and let others in the low vision community know about the podcast so the word can spread to those who might find it helpful. And now on with today's discussion.
TOPIC INTRO
Alex: this is placeholder for generic voiceover.
INTERVIEW
Matthew Reeves: Thanks Gretchen for joining us today. I'm really excited to talk to you about your area of expertise because it's something I'm really fascinated by and I know very little about. And that is the world of guide dogs.
Um, I think there's probably a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings, uh, [00:02:00] about this, this area, and I'm eager to learn. So I've got lots of questions. Uh, and so thanks. Thank you for being here.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Matthew. It's very good to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am
Matthew Reeves: Oh.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: any of the questions you have and or is any that I can anyway, and I love to share about what we do with Guide Dogs.
Matthew Reeves: Great. Well, thank you. Um, why don't we start by hearing your story and how you came to be in the position you're in and doing what you're doing, and then explain what that is for us.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: I sure can. Matthew, so it did happen a while ago how I got into this, um, before I became involved with the organization. I work for Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation. Um, I didn't know anybody who had a visual impairment or who was blind, but my parents in, in my twenties, well before that also, they were, um, active in Lions.
Lions clubs are big supporters [00:03:00] of most things related to blindness and visual impairment, um, including guide dogs. And my parents had started, um, as puppy raisers. Well, actually my sister started as a puppy raiser, and then my parents had also gotten involved. So I was not living in the area at the time. But when I heard about the organization, I all, I just thought, this is amazing. This is something I've been looking for, which is the, the junction of, of where people and animals work together that. That, um, and that people who were blind were out doing their whatever they needed to do, living their lives.
And, um, this was, and I'm an animal lover. And a dog lover. So, um, I just became really intensely curious about it. um, so I started reading newsletters from the organization and when I did move back to the area, I [00:04:00] started volunteering as, at the time you could volunteer to walk some of the dogs that were in the kennel that were not in the training program, but had to, you know, had to stay there for a few days or something.
So I started doing that and then I just really became obsessed and I just seemed like this would be a great, um, career to be an instructor that it would. It, I'm not a great behind the desk person, so I wouldn't have to be behind the desk. be working with animals, I would be working with people, and I would be working in the space where they meet, which I think is great. And I, I applied for an apprenticeship opportunity, um, and it was instead hired into the development department. So I took that opportunity and a year later they were still looking
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: um, another apprentice. So that is how I began. And that was in, in 2002, I began working at Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation.
In 2003, I began my instructor journey as an
Matthew Reeves: Wow.[00:05:00]
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Wow. And so what is your story since starting there and what have you learned?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Oh, I can't, my head just exploded when you said, what have you learned? I have learned so much. Um, so apprenticeships for, for guide dog schools are three years. And then you become a certified instructor, a certified guide, dog mobility instructor. So you train, you can train the dogs and you also work with people to, um, place the dogs with the people.
Do follow ups in the field, problem solve, troubleshoot, and do all kinds of things for the organization. That happens in a not-for-profit. So, um, I became an instructor and then, um, I began the daily work of sometimes training dogs and sometimes working with people out in the field, uh, who, who I was either placing guide dogs with them or working with them.
Fidelco has an in-community placement program, so it does not have a campus. Um, where [00:06:00] people go, which is traditional, where people go to work at the school
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: be matched with a dog. Um, Fidelco goes and sends an instructor with that person to stay in their area and they work with the new guide dog team for a couple of weeks instead. So, um, we're out in the field a lot and. I'll give you the short version of the story. I became more and more interested in what happens when, when you meet people, um, who have guide dogs. already, this is somebody who's already walking around crossing streets. Um, maybe they're working, maybe they're a student, they're engaged with their community.
This is somebody who's already kind of just out living like regular life. And I began to really appreciate that. There's a lot that happens before that. Whether somebody is born with a visual impairment or whether someone loses their vision later, that there's still a lot that happens. So I decided to, um, enroll in sch Reen enroll in [00:07:00] school again.
I already had one degree. Um, go back to school and get my degree in orientation and mobility. So then I became an orientation and mobility specialist in addition so I could learn more and understand more. Um, and again, it's another type of learning and teaching and instruction. So that also fascinated
Matthew Reeves: Wow,
that seems like it's a, um, a rare intersection for somebody to be trained in both the animal and the human side of mobility. Is that as rare as I think it is?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: It's not really common, but we do exist. We're not total unicorns. Um, the interesting thing is when I became vol, when I, when I enrolled in school, which is a master's degree, I realized I don't think I appreciated how much I knew working with, I was already an instructor with people who are blind or visually impaired.
I already had to know how to work with someone who couldn't see, uh, you can't demonstrate, like you can't in pet dog training. You can't [00:08:00] show somebody what they need to do. You have to find an another way to share that information. You have to have an appreciation for the challenges and the unique, um, ways that somebody goes through life. When they don't have much or any visual information coming in. So I didn't realize, I think how much I knew just from being A-G-D-M-I for ano, you know, at that point, at least 10 years. Um, you know, until I went to graduate school and then I realized there was a lot more to learn. Um, 'cause this would've been, this is about teaching people who have never had any, you know, who need to learn all that.
Um, and so there was a lot more to learn, but I don't think I realized how much I already knew, which was pretty awesome.
Matthew Reeves: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm wondering if we can take a moment and define some terms to clarify some things for people. 'cause we hear service animal, we hear guide dog. And more recently we hear a lot of talk about ESAs, emotional support [00:09:00] animals.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: And I would love to get your clarity on the difference between those terms and, and what we should know about the distinctions.
And maybe there's some other terms that I'm not familiar with that you wanna bring up.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: I would love to talk about that. Um, over the past couple of decades that I've been in the industry of guide dogs and guide dogs are a type of service dog. They're just a, it's a very specialized type of service dog. Um, in the years that I've been in the industry, um, and in this field of work, there are a lot more service dogs of many kinds out there. And there are some really great things about that, and there are some really, um, problematic things about that. And one of, some of the, the important things that, that don't, you know, that people don't get exposed to is what is what defines a service animal. And the Americans with Disabilities Act has, if you go on the internet, a very brief, succinct, [00:10:00] easy to read, layman's terms description, and they actually have a whole. know, section of information, multiple pages where you can learn about, uh, service dogs and what, how that is defined. You can learn and it is dogs. And I think the exception is, um, uh, miniature horse in some circumstances because those have occasionally been used as guiding animals for the blind. But basically a service.
It's a dog except for the one exception for miniature horses. So according to the a DA service, animals are our dogs. It's a service dog, and there are responsibilities that that person has with a service dog if they're gonna bring that dog into public. Um, and there are also, um, responsibilities that a business or an other entity has. Um, and, and limits as to what they can ask. Um, there is no registry for service dogs. Like there's no national registry or anything like that. Um. And so there's a lot of information people don't know, even though we've got, [00:11:00] we've kind of received a lot of exposure about service dogs.
Matthew Reeves: What under the law, what defines an animal that is a service dog versus an animal that is fulfilling some other less formal role?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: So a service dog, um, it has to be. Impeccably behaved in public. Basically, it has to be housebroken, it has to be clean, it has to be groomed, it has to be trained to complete two or more actual working tasks for a person that does not. That doesn't mean the person might not feel better with
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: dog, but this means specific tasks in the case of a guide dog. Uh, one example is maybe guiding someone around an obstacle or bringing them directly to a door so they can walk into or stopping at the bottom or top of stairs. So there are a lot of, many service dogs have many tasks. Um, if you're talking [00:12:00] about a service dog for someone who has diabetes, that might be to alert them that their sugar is low.
It might be to also, if they're having some sort of diabetic crisis to, um, bark and, you know, try to seek help. It might be to go if they're, um, having, if they're having low blood sugar, it might also be that they go to a bag or, uh, a drawer or something to get medication. That also happens with psychiatric service dogs, which is not the same as an emotional support animal, which is what you had mentioned.
That animal has a specifically trained task. So, um. And it is, the public cannot ask what kind of disability you have, you know? Um, they can't get into all your personal information. They
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: you know, is this a service animal? They can ask, you know, what tasks does it do for you? And you could say like, oh, it gets my medication, it does something else.
You know, but that's all they can do. Um, many schools do provide people with a
Matthew Reeves: Great.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: uh, like an ID for the [00:13:00] dog or something. Um, but it is not, it's not required and there is no registry. And I'm happy to talk next about emotional support animals since that's a, a, a newer topic for people. I think
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, please. 'cause I, I think, um, a lot of times there's confusion about those categories and what the legal requirements are or rights are in those categories.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Absolutely. Um, so there, it. Service dogs are allowed to go anywhere. You know, you would go as a member of the public, um, they can even go into hospitals with you. They can go into, um, if you're gonna go get x-rays, they can be there when you get x-rays. Um, you know, they have most people who use service dogs need that animal with them while they're out and about. so, you know, they go on planes, they go, um, all kinds of places. Restaurants, um, emotional support animals are a, topic that they, they're, it's a [00:14:00] specific label and it exists, um, in housing laws. So that if you needed, um, a companion, you need a doctor's note, it's under the, it's, it is under the Fair Housing Act that your landlord would then you work, you would work with your landlord to, to be allowed to have this animal with you. Um. That, and it's with landlords because as a homeowner it doesn't matter.
You can have any animal in your home. So this really is about emotional support. Animals are really about people who are in rental situations, um, so that they could be allowed to have, um, an animal to help them with, you know, either anxiety or some type of issue like that. Um, that animal still, if you read the law, it still, it also has to be well-mannered and trained.
Basically, like really good pet training. Housebroken not barking, not a nuisance, this sort of thing. Um, you know, taking care of. But that really emotional supporting will really only exist in terms of if you're renting and you need to work with your landlord because you [00:15:00] would benefit, from animal companionship, uh, to help your anxiety or, you know, to, to help something else.
They don't necessarily have a trained task and that's the one of the big differences. So, excuse me. They really only exist within housing laws and uh, they don't have anything to do with outside of your own home or apartment.
Matthew Reeves: Okay. Okay, so that helps clarify that. So with regard to Guide Dogs, this particular type of service animal, this specifically for helping people who are low vision or blind or low vision, um, what is the scope of, of the Guide Dog's responsibility? What, what are they offering and what are the, I mean, I'm asking a lot of questions here, but what are the requirements or the, the prerequisites for obtaining a guide dog who's the right fit, and what do the guide dogs do?
I'm probably asking too much at one time though.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: okay. I'll try. I work to, you know what, I'll work to answer all those questions and if I get too far off track, you [00:16:00] can bring me back. Um, so, um, I. I love that question. What is the scope or something like that of what a guide dog does? So there's a, there's a misconception that a guide dog, if you lose your vision, that a guide dog will is the answer to help you get places. really they're, they're amazing animals. They're really well trained. They're really intuitive. They do a lot of really amazing abstract thinking, but they're still a dog. So, and you are the pilot. So you have to know where you're going. You have to know how to get there. Their job is to make sure you get around obstacles. Their job is to keep you from bumping into things. Their job is to stop if there are stairs. Um, if you are looking for an elevator, their job is to help you find the elevator. And these are just examples that I'm kind of pulling out of my head. They're commonly asked questions. Um, if you, yeah. So, and if you need [00:17:00] to, um, it, when you get to where a street crossing is, the dog will stop at the down curb. then you have to decide. And I think here's a big misconception. You have to determine when it's safe to cross the street. Dogs do not have that type of understanding. Even though they've had training regarding
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: around traffic, they do not have the ability to make that decision. It's a really complex decision. Their job is to get you to that down curb. You then, with your knowledge that you've gained through your orientation and mobility training, make the choice to cross the street just like you would if you had a white cane. And then their job is to take you straight as, straight as possible across the street.
They show you the other side and then off you go and they're go back to taking you around obstacles, taking around pedestrians, um, you know, that sort of thing. And so for some people, they're a really efficient form pedestrian travel.
Matthew Reeves: Okay, so their role
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Is,
Matthew Reeves: is, is it fair to say that their role is to [00:18:00] supplement orientation and mobility, but not navigation?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: That is correct. The human is always the navigator. One way to look at the relationship is that if you have a low vision, a visual impairment, if you are blind, how you walk around and get to where you need to get, um, is for many people, um, with orientation and mobility training, it's the white cane, but it's also all that information that comes in from the environment, how to process it, what it means, how to use the information in the environment and through the cane to figure out where you are, where you wanna be and how you're gonna get there.
So, so what we do with guide dogs is instead of using the white cane, you might put it in your back pocket just in case you need it, but really then you're gonna use the dog. So the white cane is very tactile. for anybody who's listening to this podcast who has used one or seen one used, you're using it to [00:19:00] sweep out in front of you to, um, look for objects, look for doors, look for where's the edge of the stairs.
It's a very tactical form of travel. Also auditory 'cause it provides auditory feedback for people who can hear well. and then you use all that knowledge, the, the, the, the real knowledge from orientation mobility, which is how to use the environment to give you, you know, to, to help you understand where you are and how to be safe there. Um, regarding tripping hazards and whatnot. So, guide dog travel. Um, you're not using that information. The dog is making a lot of those choices for you. So your tactical information is instead of your feet and whatever the cane is giving you through the sensation of the cane and whatever you're hearing in the environment, your tactile information is now your feet on the ground and the handle of the guide dog. And so their job is to just take your own things and bring you to things and help you avoid things. So your, um, [00:20:00] you, you're, you lose a lot of tactile information for people who really like that. It kind of goes away. Um. instead you're just, the dog is, you know, making so solving these problems with you for you.
And it really is a teamwork issue. it's, uh, it's a teamwork affair, I should say. It happens because of teamwork. You and the dog have to get to learn, learn to know each other, trust each other, um, and you really work together, um, solving the problems. You know, you come across a construction issue in front of you on the sidewalk, you and the dog have to solve that together. Um, so that's the other thing that I think it adds, it adds a problem solving partner. Um, and some people really prefer a cane. Some people prefer a dog. And sometimes one of the reasons people prefer a dog is it's a problem solving partner. But
Matthew Reeves: That's interesting. I've never heard it said that way, that, that to gain the dog, it gives you a lot of,
Gretchen Fisher Orr: of
Matthew Reeves: of additional resources, but it also takes something away. And so it's, it's not that it's always an ad for any given person, it may be that for [00:21:00] certain people, uh, a cane is a better approach. Um, and then for others a dog is a better approach.
And maybe for certain people it depends on the situation. I've, I, that's an interesting, uh, bit of insight there.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: I love we get to talk about this, Matthew, because it is very true. Um, I have met people who. Um, would never want a guide dog. Maybe they're allergic, maybe they're afraid of dogs, but also maybe a guide dog is a lot of work. Um, they need a certain amount of work every day, days a week.
So if you were thinking that it would be, you've been really busy and you really just wanna kind of relax and just, you know, not have a lot of responsibility that day or that weekend, uh, that may not happen. If you have a guide dog, that dog, especially if it's a younger dog, needs to be worked. And at a minimum it needs to be cared for and its behavior as a working animal needs to be maintained.
So for some people that is a lot of work. It's a lot more work than just having a pet. Um, and having several of those, I know that's [00:22:00] worked, but it's a lot more work to have a, a guide dog or a service dog. for some people the, the cost benefit analysis doesn't work For some people. What they get out of having a dog would, does not out.
You know, it just doesn't work. I mean, whatever they get out of a dog might. Not outweigh they're appreciating from a cane. Some people prefer the tactile information from a cane. Um, some people are really busy, but maybe the lifestyle they live doesn't have room for the amount of like pedestrian work out. In the town that a dog requires out and about as it were, um, that it, it, because if a dog, if a, if a trained working dog isn't gonna get worked and they develop a lot of nuisance behaviors, if it happens long enough, they may eventually forget some of the important work they know. So, 'cause if they're like us, if you don't use it, you lose it.
So it's, it's really important, the responsibility to having not just an animal of course, but a working animal is pretty [00:23:00] significant. So for some people it doesn't make any sense. Um, it just doesn't. And, and for some people, you know, there may be some, um, mechanical or medical issue that would make it harder, make it like, um, the mechanics wouldn't work right for them to work a dog, a guide dog.
So that can happen also. And I've met some people who are so efficient and really good, like amazing at using the cane that. Because there's all these extra steps you have to take. Like if you stop at a down curb and you're waiting to cross the street, or you stop, you wanted to make a left, you have to, you know, make sure you turn your body the right way.
You have to use the, know, physical motion to motion to the dog. You have to follow the dog. You have to always keep the same steps. You can't skip steps with a dog. You really need to keep them consistent. Whereas with a cane, if you're walking down the sidewalk and you wanna go left, you just use your cane to trailer on the corner of the building line probably, and go left.
So for some people who are really [00:24:00] efficient cane travels that I've met, it actually, um, they found it maybe not as helpful an experience to have a dog because they had to take extra time, um, to go through all the process and to take the dog out and to feed the dog and to make sure right. And to inter interact with the public maybe wants to ask you questions and doesn't understand that you're running late for an appointment. So, you know, there's, there's that also, and you have to advocate for yourself if,
Matthew Reeves: Right, right, right.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: right? So it's a lot.
Matthew Reeves: So
Gretchen Fisher Orr: So
Matthew Reeves: if we're thinking about a person who is relatively new to the world of low vision and they're thinking that there might be a guide dog in their future, what are the, what is the process? What if they go from, from starting at the beginning, what is the, what are the requirements for obtaining a guide dog and, and using the guide dog Well.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: So I would say first you have to be comfortable. You have to, you wanna connect, and I know this is. [00:25:00] of your life, I am sure for people to connect with their local services for the blind. Um, because that's where, um, they might receive some assistance for adjusting. They might, um, know, be able to, uh, receive technology to make certain things in their lives possible or easier. Um, how do you navigate cooking? You love to cook. You want to keep, take care of your home. How do you navigate all that? How do you access transportation? All of those things. And also how do you walk around safely outside of your own home or for some people inside of your own home? And that piece, how do I navigate without tripping on everything or falling is what orientation and mobility is.
It is three things. Um, how, where am I? It answers three questions. Where am I now? do I want to be and how do I get there? Whether that is from your bedroom to your bathroom, or whether that is from your home. To your workplace using all kinds of public [00:26:00] transportation. How do you solve those problems if you have limited or no vision? So that is the most important thing because independence comes from that training and the support from people who, you know, who have the, the training to provide that type of support. So that is independence. Um, can layer onto that, you know, technology, GPS programs, different types of, you know, glasses that may be an enha, give you enhanced information about the environment.
You can also add to that a guide dog who, you know, who then provides a different way to walk down the street around all the obstacles and crossing streets and that sort of thing, or, you know, through, through the grocery store and whatnot. So, so the biggest thing is orientation, mobility, training. Um, also involves having places to work the dog for some people. And I've talked to, um. You know, really busy working professionals who [00:27:00] just, you know, maybe they get a ride or they hop on the bus right in front of their house and they're off and running and they're, you know, they may be out all day, but they might not be in a situation where they're actually able to give that guide dog work, even if they're, you know, out and about everywhere.
Um, so that, you know, it really depends on, on what your, your ability to work the dog is provide that dog what it needs so the dog can help you. So the dog can give you then what, what it really needs back to the partnership. Um, and because the dog won't help you cross the street and the dog won't help you. Know how to walk from one end of the block to the other. Those are skills you already have to have learned, and you already want to be a comfortable and confident traveler because if you're feeling really anxious about stepping out or crossing the street, that anxiety is more likely to be something the dog will absorb and start worrying also, except that he or she won't know why [00:28:00] they're worrying.
They just know that you're worried. And now why are, you know, we don't know what we're worried about. So speaking, it's the person who, when you get to a place where you feel like you can to the bus stop or you can, you know, get a ride into town to go run your errands, um, you know, independently.
And by independently I mean. That even if you had somebody with you that if they weren't there, you could still do all the same things because you have all the tools you need to accomplish that. Um, so at that point then it's appropriate to ask, gee, is a, is a guide dog gonna fit here? If getting a guide dog is your goal, that's really helpful to tell that orientation and mobility instructor upfront, because if that's your goal, they can make sure that you, and they are working towards that goal together when they work with you on your, what we call, you know, like your pedestrian travel skills and your travel skills, [00:29:00] which include wanna get on the bus, how do you find the bus schedule and information, all that, all those things, you know.
Um, how do you address self-advocacy? How do you, how do you address self-advocacy issues? Um, you know, if you can't see or you have low vision, that becomes really important if you are a guide dog or a service dog user. So a lot of that. Exposure and knowledge can be found within that training.
Matthew Reeves: That's fascinating. And the, so I'm, I'm hearing, just to summarize what I'm hearing, that, that the orientation mobility has to come first, and as part of that. There's also an evaluation about whether your lifestyle is an appropriate lifestyle for a guide dog. So it's about fit, not necessarily whether you measure up or not, it's about finding the right fit be of, of whether a guide dog kind of meshes into your life.
And all of that is on top of a foundation of independent mobility skills that, that [00:30:00] anybody with low vision would benefit from. So once it's determined that that dog could be valuable and a good fit, what are the next steps? Uh, and, and I'm also really curious about how the dogs are trained.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Absolutely Matthew. So, um, I am able to answer a lot of general questions. If there's anything really specific, I can answer it. Regarding the school I work for. I don't wanna speak to, you know, any information that other schools might have because this is the beauty of it. We are all a little bit different. All the guide dog schools are separate, not-for-profit entities. So, um, when you're looking at fit, and I love that you said it's not, it's not about measuring up because it's not, it's about what you need right then and what is going to work most efficiently and best for you right then.
And some of that when you get into looking. Up information about guide dogs and talking to Guide Dog schools is that we are all a little bit different. Um, if you go [00:31:00] to the website for the International Guide Dog Federation, that is an organization that accredits guide dog schools around the world, and you can go, you can go globally and look up different schools, but you can also go to that website and look up.
All the different guide dog schools in the United States. Um, I believe the National Foundation for the Blind and the American Council for the Blind also maintain lists on their websites. Um, so, but I would say for the most current, it's usually the, um, international Guide Dog Federation, since they're the ones who accredit the schools. Um, and so, there are different breeds of dogs used. There are different types of placement I already mentioned that many schools use on-campus training and fidelco, which pioneered in community training. That's what we use in the United States. And uh, I think a couple of other schools have started to use that as well.
There are, um. Programs that are, have a specialty to work with people who have a hearing impairment, including a severe hearing impairment. [00:32:00] There, um, is one school that I believe has started working with people who speak Spanish. Um, there are, there's a school that works with people who may have some additional mobility challenges. Um, not as in a service dog for a wheelchair, something like that, but mobil, additional types of challenges. Um, and so always say to people, if you're starting to think about the guide dog question, talking to schools. I mean, there are forms on the website you can fill out, but really start picking up the phone and talking to schools or emailing the admissions departments at schools. Uh, get on their website, see what they have to say because. All of the programs are a little bit different. And honestly, you could apply to three or four schools and get accepted by two and get declined by two that moment in time, simply because pro some programs are a better fit for you than [00:33:00] other programs.
Or maybe they don't have any dogs right then that are gonna be a good fit, especially the smaller schools that really comes into play. Like, do we have any dogs that we think would be a good fit for this person right now? Maybe not. Um, it's a, it's a really, it's a really rich, world of guide dogs out there.
And so I encourage people to, to really look around, kind of interview the schools. I was just talking to somebody today who, because I work in admissions at our school, about, you know. They were calling for information about our school, but I encourage them to also call other schools and basically ask all the same, basically kind of ask all the same questions of all the schools.
Some schools provide, um, financial support for veterinary care other schools don't like. These are really important questions that people need to think about. Um, so, and I'm about to launch into how do they get trained, but I don't know if I've answered your question about, you know, what does it mean to start [00:34:00] to think about applying
Matthew Reeves: Well, I think yeah, you've, you've answered a lot of that. I'm, I am wondering, I, I, I guess there's a part of me that wishes there was some golden question that somebody could ask all these different schools that says, uh, this is how I could find the right fit. But it seems like it really is about a conversation, um, and, and a lot of back and forth and getting for the person to get to know the school and for the school to get to know the person.
And then there, it's a mutual decision about, it's almost like finding the right fit for the school as much as it is finding the right fit for whether a dog is appropriate.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: it absolutely is. Um, because we're all a little different. The schools, the dogs, and the people. So that's a lot of different pieces to put together. Um, the basics for every school are, have you completed your orientation and mobility training for the basics? I mean, for some people that orientation and mobility training might be lifelong because maybe somebody moves into a new area and then needs some assistance sorting out how they're gonna get to [00:35:00] their, you know, places in their new area. Um, other people might lose more vision and so then they need an update of their skills to include. does that mean? How does that vision, additional vision loss, impact their. Travel needs out in the world when they leave their house. Um, so there can be reasons why people spend a lifetime engaging with orientation and mobility services, but the question is always, have you had your basics right?
And then, um, are you, you know, have you had your orientation mobility training? And are you using it? Are you out there crossing streets, going places, whatever your life looks like, are you using that knowledge because a dog cannot help you unless those couple of questions have already been answered. Um, and beyond that, yes it is. Um, and the best way to do it is to talk to the different schools. Some people have an interest in a particular breed. Um, some people [00:36:00] wanna go to the school that's closest to them. Um, some people in talking, I know sometimes when I talk to people, we have German Shepherds only. I probably should have said that at the very beginning of the, of the, uh, of the podcast at Fidelco.
We do in-community training. That's our specialty. We pioneered it in this country. And the other specialty is German Shepherds. We only have German Shepherds and we're a small school, so we're kind of a niche school. Um. And, but because of that, um, different breeds work better for different people. So sometimes I talk to people on the phone and by the time I'm done with a conversation, they've decided that a shepherd isn't a breed that they want. Um, and they're gonna go talk to schools that have other different breeds. So it, you know, it's, it's definitely important to, to get that information. Um, and, and I, you know, sometimes ask, what is the best dog or what is the best school? And there is no answer to that. It depends on what you need and how is the fit.
Matthew Reeves: Right. [00:37:00] That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So how do, and I know you're, you can only speak for your school, but how, what is the training process and, and where do the dogs come from? How do, how are they taken from being puppies to being guide dogs?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Most of the guide dog schools, we breed our own dogs. So every guide dog and some of the guide dog schools have been around for over a hundred years. So, um, every school typically, especially the larger schools, if they're really tiny, they typically, they may not have, um, be large enough to support a breeding program, but schools have their own breed dogs that live in people's homes. Obviously breeding animals means you're always also looking for additional animals, dogs to bring into your breeding program, the goal is. Um, to try to breed specifically for the temperament we need for guide dogs. Obviously it is about trying to, um, work with genetics that [00:38:00] are producing healthy dogs as much as possible. Dogs with good confirmation as much as possible, dogs that with longevity as much as possible, right? But also, um, we look at behavior and temperament. When all the guide dog schools do, when breeding, because, it needs an animal who's gonna be okay out in public encountering all kinds of situations and sights and sounds and smells. Um, so, and decision making and problems. And you know, like with every job there's some pressure that goes with it. They have to figure a lot of things out, and so does the person.
There's a pressure with that too, right? They have to really work closely as a team to figure all these things out. So this is a dog that needs to be, you know, comfortable in its own skin. It needs to not have sound sensitivity. It needs to, you know, be comfortable in a city environment if need be on a subway, if need be. Um, it needs to. [00:39:00] Be, um, resilient in learning because things happen when you're out there in the world, and if maybe you run into a problem, how do you overcome that problem? Some of that we can work with in training, but there is a large piece of that that is, you know, a, a dog's genetic temperament that we have to start with that basic slate. Um, so really that's what all the schools who breed their dogs are looking for. And any schools who use their, um, you know, who maybe use donated dogs are looking for the same. They just don't have as much control over some of the genetics, whatever limited control we have over genetics. Um, Fidelco actually began in 1960 as a breeding program donating German Shepherds to other guide dog schools and also for some other purposes. And then in 1981, Fidelco went from being a breeding organization for working dogs, especially guide dogs to, Um, starting to do its own placements and training. [00:40:00] And so instead of having puppies and then donating those animals to other schools, or donating a breed or selling whatever was the case at that time, to a breed animal, to a, to a school, in 1981, they started placing in training their own dogs. And so we've actually been at my school, been breeding dogs since 1960 and been in existence as a guide dog school formally since 1981. and, uh, you know, I would say in general there's a, uh, the general outline is that the puppies arrive in this world, whether they're donated by a breeder or in most instances, they are born at the school. When they're old enough puppy raisers who volunteer for this, bring them home. with the support. Of the Guide Dog school, you know, knowledge, how to raise a puppy, not just how to raise any puppy, but how to raise a puppy to be a guide dog, which is different than how to raise a pet puppy. I, it doesn't ma [00:41:00] that matter to me, that one of my small dogs gets on my coffee table.
It doesn't really matter. That really matters if you're gonna be a guide dog. So we can't have that. So, and also how, how the system of interacting
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: works. How the learning system works. We start teaching them as puppies how the learning system works. We want them to understand it and be engaged in it.
So every school does this. So we've got puppy raisers who are volunteers, who give their heart and their soul and their love, um, to these puppies and raise them with our help until they're old enough to come into training and then let them go. And if that isn't a gift that we, no guide dog school exists without the puppy raisers. And I mean that.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. That sounds like a, a, a very emotional arrangement to, to, to go into. I can imagine a lot of people might think, oh, I could, I could get, I could do that. That would be a lot of fun. It sounds like a lot of work and a lot of emotional, uh, aching at the end to, to, I [00:42:00] mean, it's rewarding but also painful to give up that relationship.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: it is. It is a lot of work. So I have a family member who raised a puppy and did a great job, and her puppy became a guide dog. Not all puppies become guide dogs, but hers did the one she raised and, but she could never do it again. And other people. Approach it. I think to them it becomes a calling we have people who have raised, I think definitely over 30, maybe even as many as 35 or 36 puppies in over the decades.
So at that point, that is your passion
Matthew Reeves: Wow.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: your calling. Right. Um, and some people raise a few, um, as a family and enjoy it. And then maybe their lives, it doesn't work out to do that anymore 'cause it's such a big commitment. Um, you know, it's a, a, it's a wide crowd of people that we all draw from.
So
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. So what's the next step? Once the puppy has gotten through that, that early stage of volunteer training? [00:43:00] What's what comes after that?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: So, uh, what comes after that is, um, they come in for formal assessment and training. We do stop to assess the puppies as they're maturing along the way. But they come in for training.
They're initially assessed. for compatibility with the training and the work. Most of the young dogs and at Fidelco, they are 18 months old at that time, roundabout. most dogs into training at that point because it's really hard to tell when you've got a young animal that's been raised by a loving family and received all this puppy training. Really, we don't know in many cases it, is it going to be successful in guide dog training until we bring them into it? Um, they live in the kennel for our school. So for Fidelco, they live in the kennel. Um, um. Overnight and on weekends and during the day, during the weekdays, [00:44:00] the trainers, the instructors and trainers who are assigned to those dogs, get them out first thing in the morning.
They feed them, they let them play. They do some basic, um, you know, sort of indoor work and, and, uh, learning related to, um, you know, where do you sit on the bus and how do you go through a door with somebody? How do you know, how do you work out all those details? How do you walk politely on a leash? Some of these basic things, we work additionally with that, beyond what the puppy razors did and then, um. They start learning. We, Fidelco has a six month training program. It can, it can be longer if it needs to be for an individual, an animal, but at Fidelco it's six months. And in that training process, that animal is formally evaluated with the, with its trainer under blindfold. So that means that the trainer wears a blindfold so they cannot see anything.
There's basically no light coming in. And is that they are observed working with the dog on a, on a specific route. And [00:45:00] so that happens three times in the animals training. it also happens un informally a bunch of other times. Um, you know, it's something that the instructors just do periodically and also do as a, as a prepar preparation for the formal blindfold training, a blindfold evaluation. And so there are those three as assessments, those formal assessments, and then there's all the information that the, you know, training department has on that animal. So it, it may be, it may be. Determine at any point in the process that an animal, a dog, is not suitable to be a guide dog. Maybe it's entirely too social, maybe it's a little bit nervous around traffic, and that's something you really need to be comfortable with.
You're gonna be a guide dog. Um, because we have German Shepherds, maybe they show up wanting to do a lot more running and jumping and bouncing than we have a job for. You know, if you're a guide dog, you [00:46:00] have to spend a lot of time walking at a human pace. Um, so, or maybe there's a medical concern that it turns out maybe they shouldn't live, uh, working a life.
Maybe they should be a pet. Um, so at the end of it all, at the six months, sometimes more mark, that dog has graduated from the program, and we start looking for the right person who is on our waiting list for that dog.
Matthew Reeves: And at that point, once a match has been made, I imagine the next step is the pairing and the training of the human. Is that the, is that right?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: that right? Yes, it is. So at Fidelco, because we do in-community training, so we send a person to stay in a hotel if they're not local to us, um, to work in for a couple of weeks to work with that person and that dog team. So for Fidelco, we do an in-person interview as part of our application process because that person's not gonna come to [00:47:00] our school. So we don't, if the first dog doesn't seem to be a good fit, we don't, we can't look to see if maybe we have another dog in the kennel while they're with us, because they're not gonna be with us.
They're gonna be in their own home training there. And we are also a small school, so we don't, you know, we don't have large quantity of dogs to choose from at any given time and. So the in-person interview really gives us a lot of information about the person's. I don't know, where do they go?
Where do they walk? Um, what do they do? What is their home like? Do they have five kids? Do they have two dogs and one is really well behaved and the other one's out of control? Do they have a parrot? We just don't know. Do they live in an apartment? Do they live in the city? In a, maybe a smaller town, like you can hear that on a phone interview, but you can really see it in person. Um, and then we also do what's called a Juno walk where the instructor will hold the harness without a dog and [00:48:00] function as if they're a guide dog to learn more about that person's mechanics, um, which and how they walk and how fast do they walk, how slow do they walk. That's really all important information to match the dog and the person. So, because we don't. Have any other options and we're at their house. When we show up with that dog, we wanna really make sure it's the best fit we think it's gonna be for that person. Um, so, you know, for us that's a really important part of the process. And then when we find a dog for someone who is on our waiting list, then we go about the business of setting up the training, um, you know, in their area with them. And we work with them every day until the placement is complete.
Matthew Reeves: And so there's a lot of, uh, obstacles. From the beginning of the process to the end of the process, a lot of checks to make sure it's a right fit and that all those, this necessary steps to ensure a good relationship happen. What about after the placement and the pairing? [00:49:00] Uh, uh, is the school out of the picture at that point or is there further support?
Is there additional like touchup training? What, what happens after the placement?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Sure. Um, Fidelco does provide follow-up support. Many schools do. So for us, that means a couple of phone calls immediately after the placement. And then a couple months after that, we will try to connect with the person, in person. We will stop in to see how everything is going, if there are any, um, if there's anything we think we could add to the, to the picture to help them.
Um. It can be anything from their basic mechanics working the dog to in the house, or just to show up and just answer some questions for, for someone, especially with their first guide dog, they've never experienced anything like this. Um, some people have never had a dog, but if this is your first guide dog, you've never had a guide dog, which is of course different than a pet, and that trust relationship that happens when you pick up that handle and you have to trust that animal that when it gets to that curb, it's gonna stop for you or it's not gonna [00:50:00] bump you into anything. You know, that's really important. It's very different than having a pet. So we wanna be there to provide support. So, so we typically, for a newer team, we might, after that, you know, visit every year or two. But we also ask that people contact us. We have a dedicated line so that people can call in when they have questions and concerns.
We can provide phone follow up as much as needed. If it's something we can't address on the phone, we will go out there again in person to see if we can't problem solve because dogs are not robots and people are not robots. And this is. You know, there, this is one of the complicated things about working with a guide dog is for some people that cost benefit analysis doesn't work out because there will be there will be questions, things will happen. Um, and, you know, you might end up out of your comfort zone a bunch. So that's the hard thing about with working with a [00:51:00] living animal. Um, and that's why we are very happy to provide support to do that up to and including when that animal, um, maybe we need to talk about retiring that dog after its life of service. Um, and what happens next after that. So
Matthew Reeves: Mm.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: we really wanna be there. I mean, we are the, we are the organization who created the dog, trained the dog, matched the dog. Um, we, you know, we wanna, it, we are the only group who has really the knowledge to really support that team in the field. know the genetics, we know what its brothers and sisters were doing in the field. We know what, you know, not its parents because they're breed dogs, but we, we have such a, you know, a history with the, the dogs that we, we wanna be there as a support, you know, process for people.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, could you go ahead and talk about the, the dog retirement process and, and what that looks like?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: like. I can, um, it's difficult for people. [00:52:00] I'll start with that because people often spend more time with their dog, their guy dog, than they do with any human. Um, they, they trust that animal. It's a really intimate bond that the dog and the human have. Um, so, you know, it's definitely a difficult process for some dogs.
There's no sort of arbitrary number that, that fidelco uses that a dog has to be retired. Um, for some dogs, they just start slowing down. Um, it starts to, you know, they start to just, you know. Not be, not moving as quickly, not making decisions as quickly. Um, and for some people they can accommodate that.
Other people can't really accommodate that. So they, you know, maybe they need to think about retirement. Some people are able to sort of say, all right, well I'm gonna work you with you in some places and maybe I'll use my cane. Maybe I'll leave you at home sometimes while you're, [00:53:00] you know, relaxing. And, and I'll go, you know, work with my cane in other places.
So that's, you know, that can happen. Um, some dogs may end up. You know, at some point with a medical issue that requires they be retired, dogs are like us as we age, we get arthritis, maybe hearing issues, maybe vision issues. And the same can happen with dogs. So that's a consideration also. Are they able to comfortably do their work?
Are they able to safely do their work? able to provide you their partner with safety? Um, so that, that is part of the, the conversation. At some point it becomes clear that it, you know, and a dog should retire and the person might, um, keep that dog in its retirement. They might, um, you know. a family member or friend to provide that dog a retirement home because maybe they, uh, you know, they're in a situation where they really need to [00:54:00] focus on the relationship with the new dog. Or maybe they're in a situation where they can only have, they can't have any pets in the apartment, uh, or their home in a, a guide dog is not a pet. But then the retired dog would then be a pet. So maybe it goes to live with, you know, maybe one of their family members instead and they get to visit 'cause it's just
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: road. Um. Every now and then somebody ends up in a situation where, you know, if they really are not able to comfortably where they don't feel comfortable providing a retirement home for the dog, then uh, FCA would certainly step in and tap into our network of wonderful volunteers who would be happy to provide, adopt the dog and provide a retirement home for the dog.
At that point, they're generally elderly. They may have some medical issues, you know, it's what happens as everybody ages. Um, but most of the time they stick close to home when they're retired. and, uh, it's just a, it's just a difficult process and some people to, um, [00:55:00] their dog until it passes on and then they'll get another dog. Some people to, uh, start with a new guide dog when the former dog is retired. And some people, um. After their dog is retired or maybe deceased, they choose not to get another guide dog for a while because, you know, it was, it leaves kind of a, you know, a, a difficult space in their lives and they wanna give that some time.
So it's a very
Matthew Reeves: Sure.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: journey
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. There's a lot of emotions involved there. Um, I want to ask if there's anything else that, that you feel like our listeners should know that maybe we haven't touched on? And I also wanna ask, um, a question that kinda a personal question for you. What is the most. Gratifying or satisfying part of your job?
Why? What keeps you going in this every day?
Gretchen Fisher Orr: So, it's an excellent question, especially [00:56:00] because it has evolved a little over time. I spend much of my time. Working with people in the admissions process, answering questions about fidelco, about guide dogs, um, helping them to figure out if this is a school they should apply to or could apply to, maybe is it a good fit?
Is, are guide dogs a good fit? And then working with them through the application process. so that's, and I do work with, um, guide dog handlers. I work with guide dog teams in the field. Still just not as much as I used to. So I think when I first began, most satisfying part was that I trained a dog that then became a guide dog and had a successful life working with somebody. then I think over time. As I shifted from lesson training and more to, or, you know, part of more, spending more time working directly with people, [00:57:00] It became that my favorite part was, after training the dog, my favorite part was, um, maybe doing a placement. At the end of that placement, realizing that the guide dog team didn't need me anymore, my job as an instructor had become obsolete. I would watch them walk off down the sidewalk and hang back a block and watch them go. And it was clear I was, I was not needed. And I loved that day that nobody needed me anymore. Um, and I think now, um, then I spent, um, probably some more time do, continuing to do training, but then doing a lot more sort of troubleshooting in the field. so that's very satisfying. And now working in admissions, um, helping people figure out if this is a life, 'cause it's a life, it's not just an animal, right? It's a life and a lifestyle. If this is a, is something they're interested in and, and if they're a good fit for our school and working them through the process of the [00:58:00] application. But if you listen to the thread with all of this, um, I would say the, the common thread in all of this is that I. Really enjoy being a part this work that allows people to explore and experience a different kind of independence. It's about being a part of the process in somebody's life to, to meet their own goals, whatever that looks like.
Um, and that's also something I enjoy when I have done orientation and mobility work with people without the guide dog. It's, it's all about, um, you know, uh, helping you. the guide dog handler meet your goals. If, if you're able to get a guide dog, what does that, you know, what does that look like for you?
And, um, you know, I don't have the illusion that people need a guide dog to be independent. [00:59:00] They don't need me to be independent. People are on their own journey. Um, someone with, I have all my vision, just in case your listeners hadn't sort of sorted that out from all the different kinds of work I've done.
I'm fully sighted. I just wear glasses for myopia. people who live with low vision or no vision encounter obstacles that I cannot even imagine every day, even though I've seen some of them in happen in front of me. Um, and I, I certainly am not gonna pretend that I, I really understand. I certainly don't have understand from my own personal experience what that's like, but I am affiliated with that experience and so I'm just so happy to be a part of the process that gives people. Whatever it is they're looking for when they're trying to live just a regular life, you know, the, the gifts of whatever independence means to you. Um, I'm happy to be a part of that journey and I know that people who work, I know, uh, I know I can speak for all of my staff, [01:00:00] the kennel staff who work in the kennel, taking care of the dogs, this, the kennel staff who also take care of the dogs when we're not there, including to take them on walks and everything as, as instructors when we're not there, you know, the fundraising staff, everybody, you're really a part of a bigger picture.
This is something so much bigger than any one of us. And I think, um, and I think that's the common thread is that I'm a part of something else and I'm helping somebody in however that looks from day to day.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Well, I don't pretend to be a voice for the entire blind and low vision community, but also I'll speak just for myself. But thank you for your contribution to, to, to people with this challenge in their life. Uh, you've spent years and years along with your team and lots of other teams throughout the world, um, in this very specific way to, uh, promote independence and promote life satisfaction.
And, uh, a lot of love [01:01:00] between people and their, uh, wonderful guide dogs. Uh, a lot of emotional connection there, uh, in addition to the service they provide. And you've been a big hand in that. And so thank you for, for doing that. And, and thank you for being part of this conversation today and offering your knowledge,
Gretchen Fisher Orr: Uh,
Matthew Reeves: uh, to me and, and this audience.
I'm really grateful and I've learned a lot. Thanks so much.
Gretchen Fisher Orr: It is my pleasure, Matthew. And I'm always happy, sometimes too happy to talk about guide dogs, to talk about what they do, to answer questions about them and Absolutely.
To address some of the misconceptions because when you see videos online or you see dogs out in the world working there, it, it's hard to know what's really happening until you start asking the people who do it, whether they, it's 'cause they use a dog, have a dog as a partner, or work at a school. So I'm just so happy for the opportunity to come and talk about one of my favorite subjects.
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OUTRO
Matthew Reeves: Thanks for joining us for this [01:02:00] episode of Insight Out. You are the reason this podcast exists and we'd love to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. That's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. There, you can share your thoughts about today's conversation, suggest a topic for a future episode, or tell us about your experience living with vision loss. Again, that's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Insight Out is produced by Integral Mental Health Services, my private practice in Atlanta, Georgia that offers psychotherapy for adults in Georgia and chronic illness and disability counseling nationwide. Visit us at integralmhs.com and you can visit insightoutpod.com to catch up on all the episodes. [01:03:00] You can also find us on social media using the handle @insightoutpod. I hope you'll join me for the next episode of Insight Out. Subscribe now in your favorite podcast app to stay connected. Thanks again for listening.