016 Cooking without Looking with Debra Erickson
Debra Erickson is a formally trained chef and the founder of The Blind Kitchen, an organization dedicated to making cooking accessible for everyone with vision loss. After being diagnosed with Retinitis Pigmentosa, Debra attended culinary school as a blind student and discovered innovative ways to navigate the kitchen without sight. Today, she shares her expertise through specialized tools and free educational videos that empower others to regain their independence and joy in cooking. We’ll be discussing how adaptive techniques can transform your relationship with food and boost your confidence at home and beyond.
The Heart of the Home: Reclaiming the Kitchen with Debra Erickson
As a psychotherapist, I often talk with my clients about the concept of "identity loss" following a diagnosis of vision impairment. We discuss the grief of losing a driver's license or the frustration of navigating new technology. But one area that carries a unique, deep-seated emotional weight is the kitchen. For many of us, the kitchen is the heart of our homes—it’s where we provide for our families, celebrate our heritage, and connect with friends. When vision loss makes using a knife or a stove feel dangerous, it doesn't just change what we eat; it changes how we see ourselves.
This is why my conversation with Debra Erickson was so profoundly illuminating. Debra’s story is a masterclass in resilience. Diagnosed with Retinitis Pigmentosa at 28, she eventually reached a point where she could no longer "pretend" to see. Instead of retreating, she enrolled in a vocational rehabilitation meal prep course that sparked a radical idea: she wanted to teach other blind adults how to cook. But first, she decided she needed to master the craft herself, leading her to become the only blind student in her culinary school program.
Solving the Problem, One Tool at a Time
One of the most striking things about Debra is her systematic approach to problem-solving. In culinary school, she wasn't just learning how to make a roux; she was discovering how to "temp" food safely using talking thermometers and how to use portion scoops to ensure consistent plates without visual cues. She realized that while the industry had tools for efficiency, those same tools could be the key to accessibility for the blind community.
Through her organization, The Blind Kitchen, she now provides a library of "specialized knowledge". During our interview, she described simple but life-changing tools. Here are just three examples:
Bump Dots: Small adhesive tactile markers that turn flat, inaccessible microwave buttons into a usable interface.
Boiler Alert Discs: Ceramic discs that rattle at the bottom of a pot when water begins to boil, providing an audible cue that replaces a visual check.
Cut-Resistant Gloves: Kevlar or similar materials that allow a cook to feel the pressure of a knife without the risk of injury, providing the confidence to use sharp tools again.
Beyond the Basics: The Social Kitchen
Debra and I also touched on the social anxieties that come with vision loss. Many people avoid dining out because they fear "groping around" a dark restaurant or feel embarrassed about needing help to find their seat. Debra shared a beautiful perspective on this: the "pre-done dance". By using subtle techniques—like having a dining partner place your hand on the back of a chair or orienting your plate using the "clock method" (meat at 2 o’clock, potatoes at 6 o’clock)—you can maintain your dignity and focus on the conversation rather than the logistics of the meal.
Reframing Independence
Perhaps the most meaningful part of our discussion for me as a professional was our reflection on "independence". There is often a misconception that being independent means doing everything entirely by yourself. Debra and I agree that this is a false—and often harmful—narrative.
I like to use the metaphor of a carpenter: a carpenter is no less skilled because they use a hammer to drive a nail. The hammer is a tool that allows them to achieve their goal. Similarly, asking for help—whether it’s from a sighted friend, a volunteer on the Be My Eyes app, or an AI assistant—is simply another tool in our kit. When we ask for help, we are still the ones "getting it done". We are still the architects of our own lives.
Final Reflections
For many in our community, especially those who lose their vision later in life, the journey back to the kitchen is a journey back to the self. If you have been living on a "microwave popcorn diet" because you're afraid of the stove, I want you to know that there are resources waiting for you. You don't have to identify as "blind" to benefit from a talking thermometer or a slicing guide; you just have to be someone who wants to stay connected to the things that bring you joy.
As Debra so eloquently put it, "Cooking gives me meaning". I hope this conversation inspires you to find your own way back to the heart of your home, one bump dot at a time.
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Cooking is one of the most fundamental activities of daily living, yet for many experiencing vision loss, the kitchen can suddenly feel like a landscape of hazards and frustrations. In this episode, Matthew Reeves speaks with Debra Erickson, a blind culinary school graduate and the visionary behind The Blind Kitchen. Debra shares her personal story of adjusting to Retinitis Pigmentosa and how a vocational rehabilitation course eventually led her to professional culinary training and a mission to help others "cook without looking".
Listeners will discover a wealth of practical strategies and specialized tools designed to ensure safety and consistency in the kitchen. From "bump dots" on flat-screen microwaves to "boiler alert discs" and cut-resistant gloves, Debra explains how simple modifications can prevent burns and injuries while fostering true independence. The discussion also delves into the social aspects of food, offering tips for navigating dark restaurants and using subtle cues with dining partners to maintain dignity and connection.
Beyond the technical skills, this episode addresses the emotional weight of vision loss, such as the fear of losing one's role as the family cook or the isolation of staying home to avoid "groping around" in public. Debra’s insights provide a hopeful roadmap for anyone looking to transition from a "microwave popcorn diet" to preparing nutritious, delicious meals. Whether you are a lifelong foodie or someone just trying to manage the basics, you will find encouragement in Debra's message that your contribution to the world—and the dinner table—is far from over.
Topics Covered: Retinitis Pigmentosa diagnosis , culinary school as a blind student , vocational rehabilitation and meal prep , The Blind Kitchen library , browning ground meat techniques , talking thermometers , dining out with vision loss , bump dots for accessibility , safety tools like cut gloves and boiler discs , the emotional impact of losing culinary independence , entrepreneurship with a disability , and the power of asking for help.
Visit The Blind Kitchen
ABOUT THE PODCAST
inSight Out is your podcast home for living well with vision loss. Host Matthew Reeves (LPC CRC NCC) is a legally-blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor specializing in helping people thrive while living with disability. Matthew is licensed in Georgia and is a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor.
Please be sure to subscribe to catch every episode. And remember to share the show with others in the blind and low-vision community!
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©Integral Mental Health Services, LLC
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The following transcript is AI generated and likely contains errors.
016 Cooking without Looking with Debra Erickson
[00:00:00]
COLD OPEN
Alex: This is placeholder for generic voiceover.
INTRO
Matthew Reeves: You're listening to Insight Out a podcast about living well with low vision. Maybe you're feeling confused, scared, isolated, or disheartened about a recent vision loss diagnosis, or maybe you've been managing your vision loss for a while and now you want to hear from others about how to continue growing and thriving. Insight Out is your supportive space to find healthy and impactful tools to build and maintain a truly rich and gratifying life with low or no vision.
I'm Matthew Reeves. I'm a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor. I specialize in helping people adjust to disability through my practice, integral Mental Health Services in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm really glad you're listening.
[00:01:00] Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and let others in the low vision community know about the podcast so the word can spread to those who might find it helpful. And now on with today's discussion.
TOPIC INTRO
Alex: this is placeholder for generic voiceover.
INTERVIEW
Alex: This is placeholder for generic voiceover.
Matthew Reeves: Deborah, thank you for joining me for Insight Out. Uh, I had the pleasure of watching you give a presentation, uh, for the Foundation Fighting Blindness in your area of expertise, which is cooking with low or no vision. And I thought what you had to offer was so valuable, and cooking is such an important part of all of our lives.
Uh, so I was really excited that you accepted my invitation to, to, uh, come on the podcast and talk about it. Uh, so thank you so much for being here.
Debra Erickson: Thank you so much for having me. I love your po. And also the foundation. Fighting Blindness is such a good organization. They do so much important work.
Matthew Reeves: That's, that's absolutely true. I'm, I'm excited that, that they're [00:02:00] connected with you. Um, so your area of expertise is cooking, but before we get into that, I'd love to hear your story of Low Vision so that I can understand it better and our listeners can understand where you're coming from.
Debra Erickson: Sure. Well, I have retinitis pigment pigmentosa, and I have very little vision left in one eye only. And mostly if the lighting is perfect, I can pick up some contrast or some, uh, cloudy shapes moving around. But, uh, for the most part, I am, I'm functionally blind.
Matthew Reeves: Oh.
Debra Erickson: I am. no history of blindness in our family.
I was diagnosed at 28, but I'm one of 12 children
Matthew Reeves: Wow.
Debra Erickson: I was diagnosed, three of us have it. it's, my parents were apparently, uh, recessive gene carriers and so there's like a one in four chance. So statistically we're right on target,
Matthew Reeves: So mathematically you're excelling.
Debra Erickson: [00:03:00] only in terms of eye diseases, not in terms of real math. uh, my smart speakers are my friend when it comes to math.
Matthew Reeves: Fair enough.
Debra Erickson: yeah,
so I lost most of my remaining vision, the, the biggest percentage of it where I could no longer pretend I could see and pretend not to be blind. And so I went to the Oregon Commission for the Blind and, and that's where I started getting my skills through voc rehab, like orientation and mobility, adaptive devices, braille.
And one of those courses was meal prep, and that was where the seed was planted for the blind kitchen.
Matthew Reeves: Okay. Did now, were you, um, into cooking? Was cooking a big part of your life while you still had vision?
Debra Erickson: Not at all because my mom had seven daughters, so one-on-one time in front of the, so with her was just not an option. And besides that, there was no room. I'm one of the older kids, so she was always, so [00:04:00] there you go. And so, um, and I was a tomboy. All I wanted to do was do cartwheels and climb trees and, but. Uh, for me, well, the roles, roles are very. Specific in Indiana. I don't know if it's still that way, but when I was growing up, definitely the boys did all the outside work and the girls did all the inside work. So for me, cooking growing up was doing dishes and maybe peeling 10 pounds of potatoes, but it did not involve the oven or the stove top.
Matthew Reeves: Okay.
Debra Erickson: then. After I, grew up and I got married, had kids, I would always just do, I could read boxes and cans and frozen foods, and so I, that's what I did. And, and my youngest son is six foot five, so it didn't hurt him, but I certainly was not any stretch, a gourmet cook and, and didn't particularly enjoy it.
So this, this is a surprise for me as well, the way my life, the path my life has taken.
Matthew Reeves: So once [00:05:00] you, uh, took that meal prep course through voc rehab, um, which by the way, if people don't know about voc rehab, I would encourage them to check out one of our earliest episodes, which is all about vocational rehabilitation. So you can learn about that. Um, but one of the things they offered to you in Oregon and specifically was this course on meal prep.
Meal prep. How did that impact your life? What was that experience like?
Debra Erickson: It's one of those things that changed my direction. So I in the past have taught adults and I like teaching adults. I love kids, but I don't want to teach them and be in a classroom with them. I, um. I knew I wanted to teach adults as part of my voc rehab, but I didn't wanna go back to teaching what I had been teaching.
I thought that would be very frustrating for me. But that being said, there are a lot of people that resume their careers after vision loss and, and do perfectly well at it. But I, I knew intuitively that that probably would not be my experience. So I was trying to figure out what to [00:06:00] teach. I was in the, the classroom with my cooking instructor, who is now my very dear friend. And I, the light bulb went on. I thought, this is fun. I'm enjoying the comradery, the conversation, the skills, the tools, and, and then the light bulb went off. You know, maybe I could teach this. And then the light bulb went off and I thought, but. You don't know how to cook. How are you gonna teach cooking?
And so I actually, after that class, I went home and I started researching How do you teach cooking? And it was like, cooking is all over the place for anybody. And at, at some point in time, I thought about co cooking school culinary. That's where they know how to teach cooking 'cause
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: do.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: so much to people's surprise, I was the only blind student in culinary school and I loved it. I
Matthew Reeves: Wow.
Debra Erickson: I love the history. I, and I loved, I, I just learned to love cooking. And when you do lose vision, it's not like [00:07:00] your hearing gets better or your taste gets better, or your
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: but you've, you count on it more.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: on it more so that, I think that the vision loss enhance the cooking experience for. For me from when I was no longer had the visual cues that I, that I used to.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: how, I did not want to, all I wanted to do is teach, uh, legally blind Oregonians how to cook one-on-one. So I graduated in June of 2019 I went to teaching immediately at the Commission for the blind teaching meal prep and loved cooking with my. She became my friend, my instructor became my friend, and we just, it, it was just such a nice time until March of 2020. You know, six months
Matthew Reeves: Did, did something happen in March of 2020?
Debra Erickson: you may have heard of
Matthew Reeves: I may have heard of it, yeah. It's vaguely familiar. Yeah.
Debra Erickson: Vaguely familiar. Exactly, but it was of course the
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: And at the beginning of it, it was [00:08:00] very confusing for everybody. Could you be in the same room with people? Could, did you have to wear gloves? Did you have to wear masks? It was it, it was confusing. So the state. Most, many states, um, in, in an effort to protect their clients, closed down for a while, you know, stopped in-person classes and things like that and that. So I was sent home for about a year and a half until they figured the whole COVID thing out. I, and that's when the blind kitchen, I, I started gathering my materials.
'cause culinary school is tough. It's six hours a day, four days a week, and you are lifting heavy
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, it's very
Debra Erickson: around. Oh, it is. It is. And I'm no spring chicken, so.
Matthew Reeves: You know how to cook a spring chicken.
Debra Erickson: That's right. That's right. And so I knew, so I was with it. It, it was just, I didn't have time to organize this stuff. And the thing, at that point in time, a lot of good hints [00:09:00] and tips and jewels and different podcasts on different YouTube channels and different books. But there was no comprehensive place to, to look for all things cooking with vision loss.
And so once I started. Pulling together the information of all the problems I'd have to solve during culinary school. Like how do I make an over easy egg that a customer would like? How do I portion foods to make sure that it, 'cause it's all about, you know, careers that they're teaching us to work in commercial. Kitchens or
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: And so, um, I learned a lot because like portioning, that's a culinary thing.
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: into my restaurant and I give your dining partner a whole lot more food than I give you, that's two problems. Number one, you're gonna be
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: you might not frequent the restaurant again.
And the other thing is costs are un
Matthew Reeves: And predictable.
Debra Erickson: have any costing. Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: They use portion scoops, so that's great for blindness, you know that
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: have an [00:10:00] attractive, consistent plate for four people that you're serving. Dinner it it. So culinary school, absolutely. There were certainly challenges and things that I was not able to do successfully, but mostly it really lent itself to being more consistent in cooking with vision loss.
Matthew Reeves: And it sounds like to some extent you were learning some tools that were already widely used in the industry that happened to serve a blind person. Well, like the portioning, but also it sounds like a lot of what transferred to what you're doing now, which we'll get into in a moment, was you encountering problems in a very systematic way.
You're this, you're going through a curriculum and ev for every problem you find. It's not something they're teaching you, you are discovering for yourself how to solve the problem. Maybe with some help, of course, some support, I hope. But it was your challenge to say, all right, how do I figure this out?
And for the most part, you, you check [00:11:00] those off one at a time, and then you walk out at the end with this almost mental compendium of all these things you've figured out. And then you turn that into a successful business.
Debra Erickson: That that is well said. I, I have to say, and I cannot speak any higher of the, the instructors that I, that I, uh. Was taught under, but they don't know blindness. That isn't their world. Although one of them went and interviewed, there's a blind woman here named Carina in Beaverton. She owns a vegan bakery and he went and inter interviewed her before even knowing who, what if this student was a man or a woman or older or younger, just so that he could, so Scheffer really went out of his way, but that, but that's not their area of expertise. And they, they tried to help, but things like in, in a restaurant, you have to constantly be temping food,
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: make sure that it's in the safety zone and not gonna kill your customers if it's been sitting on the line too long. [00:12:00] And so talking thermometers existed, so I was able to access that same information as my, the other students with using a very simple to operate tool.
But that is probably one of the most important tools in my kitchen
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: it. Lets me know when the food is done. I don't have to overcook it to not kill my family. You know, I, I can just put it in, get the temperature and, and know where I'm at. So a lot of these solutions were relatively simple, but hadn't been totally thought out or organized
Matthew Reeves: Right. Or collected together. Yeah.
Debra Erickson: Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, you're making me realize that while I have a food thermometer, which I use on a regular basis, it's not a talking food thermometer, and it is hard to see. I do have a talking scale. So, uh, the scale is great and, and, but, but you know, I, I love, I really enjoy cooking.
I've cooked for a long time, uh, through the help of a lot of online experts that, that I've followed for [00:13:00] years, and I really enjoy it. It's, it's a, it's a real hobby. And I feel like I've, I'm pretty well equipped. Like I've got a lot of tools. I've got a lot of techniques. I've learned how to use my ears as much as my eyes for like, for know, when the onions are done and what the feel of the spoon is against the onions.
Like are they soft or are they hard? Um, but even after all these years, there's still tools that, that I would benefit from. Being aware of or thinking about or just being mindful about it. Like, I know there's talking thermometers, but having bought one, I don't know why I haven't bought one, actually.
Should so,
Debra Erickson: I can put some insight on the talking thermometer. So
Matthew Reeves: yeah.
Debra Erickson: was another tool not made for. Blind or visually impaired people? What, when it was initially invented, as far as I can tell, it was for outdoor grillers for after
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Debra Erickson: They have digital displays and back lights, but that, that wasn't enough for a lot of people.
And so then they put the talking function in the, the problem is, is you, if you have vision loss and you [00:14:00] are trying to read that digital display on that thing, now your eyes are near the food, your
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: your mouth. It's, it's not, it's not ideal and you could actually injure your eye if something spatters or something like that.
If you're
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: to the 'cause, you can only get about six inches from the probe to and to need to be able to see it.
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Debra Erickson: allows you to retain a level of dignity that you're not hunched over. 'cause most people don't hunch over when they read a thermometer that you can stand up tall and straight and still get the information you need.
Matthew Reeves: right. And uh, to that point, I did buy a, a thermometer specifically for my grill and. That allows it to connect to my phone so the phone can be inside the house and I can read, I can use all the same, uh, magnification tools, which is useful for me, not for everybody. Um. But that allows me to know the temperature on a device that has a lot more flexibility and a lot more, uh, accessibility.
Accessibility built into it at the operating [00:15:00] system level. Uh, so connect connection to the phone is a really useful tool in some sort, in some circumstances. Sometimes. It's really frustrating though.
Debra Erickson: Yes. Agreed. Agreed. We, let's not get started on technology.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, that's a different podcast.
Debra Erickson: but it's, uh, yeah, it's, it. When it works, it's wonderful.
Matthew Reeves: So you had a vision for taking this knowledge you learned in culinary school and turning it into something that serves the blind community specifically. Tell me about what that vision was and what the Blind kitchen is all about.
Debra Erickson: Well, I thought if I could, because I, I was kind of serving a, an audience of one, which was me. What would I like to have had going into culinary school or. Or, you know, after I lost my vision and I thought I, I'd just like to be able to cook basic things. I'd just like to be able to do it where it's consistent.
And so that's how it ended up starting out. But then once the word got out about the blind kitchen, which I'm grateful for [00:16:00] all the early. People that spread the word about it. themes came up. Were people that that, that they were interested in, of which I didn't have a tool for. And I didn't have a, you know, a tutorial video.
And I'll tell you, some of the more often asked questions are, how do I brown ground meat?
Matthew Reeves: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: a real problem for a lot of, a lot of blind
Matthew Reeves: That is a highly visual thing. Yeah.
Debra Erickson: is. It is. And then the other one is, another one is how you center a pan on a hot stove. Again, it doesn't come with a special tool.
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Debra Erickson: use a talking thermometer to temp ground meat.
That's not a, not a
Matthew Reeves: and you certainly can't use your fingers.
Debra Erickson: No. And you can't use your finger. Exactly. So I started developing answers to those things that, so. The tools are the bread and butter of the blind kitchen, the sales of the tools, but the heart of the blind kitchen is the library where you're gonna get, how do you brown gr meat?
There's, you know, use a, use a, a [00:17:00] shallow saute pan with the. walls for sides instead of off ramp slopes, you know, so that way if the meat hits it while you're stirring, it's more likely to bounce back in the pan instead of go up and over off the ramp. So some of the, the tips and techniques don't involve tools, but it is specialized knowledge and, um. And, and that's my favorite thing to do, is to solve a problem or to learn how to solve a problem from someone else. That, for a concern that that other people have that, that it's a good feeling.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. It, it must be, and you know, it occurs to me that when your work. Goes well, and then the knowledge gets transferred and people start implementing it. They gain a level of independence and safety for sure, but at the end of the day, they're just getting a meal cooked in the same way that anybody else would.
But without these tools, without the techniques and the [00:18:00] education and the confidence and all of that, life could be very, very challenging. And this could actually have a very, this is maybe not just. Accessing something enjoyable or a hobby. This could be accessing just basic nutrition and health. Um, what, what have you seen in terms of what it's like for, for folks that don't have these skills?
What problem, what's the what, what does it look like to have the problem you're trying to solve?
Debra Erickson: Yeah, so there are a lot of people that don't have access, like in rural areas. To, rehab or, you know, other skill building centers or, or it would provide a hardship on their family if they had to leave for a 12 week, you know, session. So having, you know, we live in a time where A allows us a lot more access to things we wouldn't have had before. And so for the person, so the other thing about vision loss, it can be very isolating. [00:19:00] And, and I, I'm guilty of it as well. There are times when I, when I get invited out or something, I think, shoot, I don't know where the bathroom is. I've gotta find a ride to get there. I've gotta figure out how to get there.
And then I can't make eye contact with people and I don't know half the people there. So I can come up with a million excuses as to why I might stay isolated. So I get why people do. But doing something like cooking, even if it's cooking for your neighbor or something like that, that's a good feeling to. Give someone a delicious, nutritious meal, um, and, and cooking for yourself. There's a reward in that right away,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: a nice thing. Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: with all the videos and things that are out there in podcasts, there's so much to be learned if about any particular fruit or vegetable or protein there, there's just an endless learning amount.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, I've heard, uh, I think I've, I've even had some clients that have been maybe on the brink of this, uh, maybe not to this degree, but [00:20:00] folks. Who have encountered vision loss, and they feel limited to nothing more than microwave popcorn for basically every meal. It's the one thing they've figured out how to, how to prepare, uh, and that if, if you're already going through something so difficult, the last thing you need is, is basically a starvation diet and no nutrition and no.
And then now, like you need more resources, not less. Uh, so I, I'm,
Debra Erickson: true, and it makes me sad to hear those stories, but I'll, I'll tell you, I worked with a lot of Oregonians adults. They all had to be adults to be in voc rehab, and they not, not, I never had to teach any of them how to use a microwave.
Matthew Reeves: They, they all, that's something they figure out real fast. Yeah.
Debra Erickson: Exactly. And it, it's not the healthiest way to eat, but I, I do microwave meals every once in a
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Debra Erickson: not the healthiest way to eat, but it, it's better than nothing. And now there's a lot of different, kinda like microwave techniques, like [00:21:00] making eggs, poaching eggs in the
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: So I'd encourage people if they are just doing the popcorn starvation diet, check out some other in information,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: and chat.
GPT is wonderful for giving information. Very detailed on different things.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, for sure.
Debra Erickson: it's out, it's, it's out there.
Matthew Reeves: So you said that I, I love how you described the, um, the, what was it you said the heart is the video, the heart of you, the blind kitchen is, are the videos and the education you're giving, and you said the, the, something else was the, the videos. What? Tell me about the videos. Are they, um, sorry, the tools?
Yeah.
Debra Erickson: Yeah. Or the, the sales, but the, the heart of it's the blind kitchen library,
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: information on, well, it didn't start that way. It's, it's grown over time, but on labeling, identifying things, and close containers, how to access and read recipes if you can't lead, read large print anymore. [00:22:00] Um, how to dining out.
How do you shop? You need
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Debra Erickson: You need ingredients. How do you do that if you can't see anymore and you can't jump in your car and go to the store? so they're dining out. Dining out becomes a real. Learning curve as well. It can be done, but, but, you know, lumbering around a dark restaurant with dim lighting, um, that no predictable seating arrangements.
It might be a booth, it might be a table.
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Debra Erickson: know and you don't really wanna be groping around.
Matthew Reeves: right.
Debra Erickson: there are, there are more subtle ways to be able to, if you have a dining partner, that they can help you without. Anyone even knowing that, that you guys have pre-done this dance. For example, I go out to a restaurant with, with a friend or whoever my dining partner is, I will say, when we get to the restaurant, I'll, I'll be on your elbow.
And I, I do keep my cane out so the people know
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: on. I'm not using it, but I, I just, it just says, Hey, there's, [00:23:00] you know, we gotta. Pay a little special attention here. There's gonna be, there's something going on
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Debra Erickson: I take her arm and then she takes her hand, which the arm, my arm, my hand is holding her elbow and she sets it on the back of the chair.
I'm to sit in or the back of the seat of the booth and then I just have to follow her hand down. And I know the orientation 'cause she's got it on the back of the chair
Matthew Reeves: right.
Debra Erickson: know the orientation. So it's, it doesn't have to be done with words. But it's, and then the other thing they can do is take your plate and put the protein in front of you.
So if the, the waiter puts it down or the service person puts it down, just reach over and orient my plate and, and no words need to be spoken. She, your, your are at four o'clock, your potatoes are at six o'clock, your meat is at two o'clock. It, we don't have to do that.
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: i, it, it makes it predictable for me.
It's not perfect, but it's definitely predictable. So.
Matthew Reeves: It, to the very least, it's a starting point. Uh,
Debra Erickson: Exactly. Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. I've, I've thought [00:24:00] in the past, and this came up in a conversation I was having recently, where somebody was saying, if I go to a restaurant, I will take with me. A white cocktail napkin knowing that there's a really good chance that the tablecloth will be a dark color, and the, the cocktail napkin gives me a place, gives me something I can see with my limited vision where I can set my cup and I know it's not, it's, it's safe.
My glass
Debra Erickson: Oh,
Matthew Reeves: right.
Debra Erickson: that. I heard,
Matthew Reeves: They, they prepare for it,
Debra Erickson: Yeah, I heard no tea. Talk about that. You're going on a trip, you're gonna be in a hotel, bring a, a light washcloth and a dark one.
Matthew Reeves: right.
Debra Erickson: way if it's dark county, you, you, it, it immediately gives you some contrast.
Matthew Reeves: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And restaurants are, I, you know, if you were to try to design a space that is hard for low vision people, a restaurant is pretty much it. You've got a, it's almost always gonna be dim if it's a nice restaurant, you know, a fine dining or, or something along those lines. And then the servers are more often [00:25:00] than not also wearing black.
So you've got people. Walking around with no reflectivity carrying food, and they're moving quickly and it's completely unpredictable. It's like, how, how are you, how am I supposed to go to the restroom? Right?
Debra Erickson: It's
Matthew Reeves: Uh,
Debra Erickson: true.
Matthew Reeves: so asking for help that, that, the, that's my answer is I ask for help. Uh, and,
Debra Erickson: agreed,
Matthew Reeves: I had to get.
Debra Erickson: are more comfortable than others.
Matthew Reeves: And yeah. And, and finding the right people to ask for help from. Uh, and that changes everything. And, and recognizing that that doesn't make me any less of a person because I need to ask for some help. Uh, if, if anything, if anything, I think it takes strength to ask for help. Uh, so I'm, I'm kind of proud of it.
I didn't used to feel that way. I used to struggle with that, and I think it's a, I'm proud of my own growth that, that asking for help is something I can do now. Um, so, so.
Debra Erickson: I agree with you.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. What are the videos that are the most popular that people resonate with the most? What, what? What do people love learning?
Debra Erickson: So it's not about loving learning, it's about, so [00:26:00] I'll just give you two for the numbers of views. Um, for some reason, bump dots is
Matthew Reeves: yeah.
Debra Erickson: almost always, number one. Um, the other one is,
Matthew Reeves: Can you describe bump dots just for people who don't know?
Debra Erickson: oh, good, good point. So they are little. S generally half circles about maybe the size of your pinky, but they come in different shapes and sizes.
But picture yourself that you're holding a P in your hand and it's cut directly in half. So on the bottom half of that, the flat side is an adhesive.
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: so what they do is you can put them on flat screen microwaves or different places, different buttons on your remote control or on your keyboard. And, and when you find that dot, you'll know exactly what finger is on.
So
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: the numbers are often, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, all the way down to the zero, which then you have the. Symbols on either side of
Matthew Reeves: Yep.
Debra Erickson: If you put a bump dot on the two and you put a a [00:27:00] bump dot on the eight, now you know all the other keys, you
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Debra Erickson: space and, and all that. So the bump dots help you to on to, to be confident that you're in a particular place on an item or tool that was before unaccessible to you.
Matthew Reeves: right. Because our world is filled with the, with, we don't have. Traditional buttons anymore, like you, like you're describing on a microwave, everything is flat. Uh, so the bump dots fix that problem for me on my microwave. The bump.is on the five I. Uh, so, uh, that's my, that's my centering. So whatever, whatever works I that two and eight, I actually, I think might be a little better.
I might have to change that. I also have one on my, um, I also have one on the start button on my, uh, laundry machine, my dryer. Uh, 'cause that's, it's stacked, so that's really high up. And I can't use my magnifier run. I don't wanna get a ladder out every time. So I can just reach out, find the bump dot [00:28:00] and I start the machine.
So it, so the bump, the bump dots are incredibly inexpensive and solve just an infinite number of problems. So, so the bump dots is one really popular video. What, what you said you wanted to mention the second one.
Debra Erickson: So the other one is we have something called a slicing guide. 'cause I don't know about you. Even when I could see slicing, especially a tomato, I, it was very hard. 'cause once you finally get through the
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: it, it's easy to go wonky,
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: get. Make it too big or too small. So this is a guide, it's kind of like a fork with long tongs on it so that it's got like 10 tongs that are three inches
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: and then it's held together with a plastic candle.
So then when I'm slicing the tomato, I put that slicing guide in the tomato, it goes all the way down to my cutting board, and then I put the knife tip in between the different. Guides
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: and then it's gonna be consistent. 'cause my knife cannot cut through stainless steel. So even if I start to go a little bit wonky, the stainless steel will, [00:29:00] will correct where I'm going.
Matthew Reeves: Right. Yeah.
Debra Erickson: the problem is it looks like a afro comb or an Afro pick
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Debra Erickson: and people just troll on that. Slicing, uh, that's a co, that's a pick. And it's like, oh, people please get past it. So it, it was, it's kind of funny. So that one gets, gets a lot of comments still.
Matthew Reeves: well let 'em know if they're in your kitchen and they make fun of your tool that they don't get any tomatoes.
Debra Erickson: That's right. nothing
Matthew Reeves: No, no tomato for you.
Debra Erickson: I'm dating myself.
Matthew Reeves: I, I got the reference, so I am too. So, um, okay. So, so that's two videos, um, that are, you know, specific, but you, it, but it sounds like you've got dozens if not hundreds of, of videos out There Are these, these are all hosted, uh, at the blind. What's the URL for your, for your website? Where can peoples find these
Debra Erickson: So it's the blind kitchen.com. The blind kitchen.com, and then it's very [00:30:00] screen reader friendly, um, very magnifier friendly. I don't have any affiliate ads or pop-up ads. It's just the website. So it's very predictable and, and you can navigate it pretty easily. But people can just put in, you know, there's easy to find the search box and you visually I understand as well.
And you can just put it in and it'll bring up the. The links from the website. I'm working actually right now with, so some people have problems with technology, you know, maybe they lost their vision later in life and they're not gonna go to a training school. Um, and it's frustrating, but they like having customer service to help them place orders and stuff.
And I get it. I love having customer service help me with things. It saves me some battles. And I'm working with Inno search.ai. I will have if, if it all works out, we're getting near the end of it now, uh, to pilot it, that people can call a designated number for the blind kitchen and just speak normally and be able to place their [00:31:00] orders.
It's very exciting.
Matthew Reeves: So essentially you don't have to pay a person to sit and man a phone for. However many hours a week, uh, bet you get the advantages of having some, uh, essentially some, something close to a human,
Debra Erickson: Yes.
Matthew Reeves: uh, to help with order placement. That's great. That's great.
Debra Erickson: see if it works. Exactly. And as a small business, I just can't afford,
Matthew Reeves: Of course,
Debra Erickson: human, a nice, kind, human being on the other end of the phone.
Matthew Reeves: right.
Debra Erickson: But it's just not, uh, resource wise, it's not possible
Matthew Reeves: just not practical. Yeah. Yeah. And though those video available, uh, you know, it's, there's resources all over the web and, and we hear about it and we go, oh, I'll have to check that out and see if there's something new, but we never go back. Right. Or is there, is there a way people can access your videos through, uh, YouTube?
Debra Erickson: We have a YouTube channel, we have a Facebook page. And the thing is, whenever there's any new content, we put it across our social media, LinkedIn and
Matthew Reeves: Okay.
Debra Erickson: as well. Um, and so then [00:32:00] people can get a preview of what's coming. Um, but I. The other thing we have is, which I would strongly encourage people to sign up for, it's free, it's our newsletter because at the beginning of the month, it comes with a tip of the month, which costs you no
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: there's nothing to purchase. It's just, here's what would make your, might make your life easier. Um, the other is the tool of the month. So for introducing a brand new tool or reviving an old one that hasn't been, you know, been. Put online
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: then people can, then it tells 'em what the new tool is and what it does.
And it's a real simple newsletter. Um, because if
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: more, you have to click through the links. It's not found in the body of the newsletter. So you can go through it really quickly and say, I'm not interested, not interested. Ooh, that looks like something I might be interested in.
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: and, and we put coupon codes in there.
For free tools for
Matthew Reeves: Oh,
Debra Erickson: month.
Matthew Reeves: that's great.
Debra Erickson: another thing. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: it [00:33:00] that's, it's, that's one of the attractive things about
Matthew Reeves: I,
Debra Erickson: too.
Matthew Reeves: really appreciate the formatting of that, so that whether you're using a screen reader or a magnifier, it doesn't take 20 minutes to scan the newsletter to find the things that you're interested in. You can quit. It's basically a table of contents, and then if you're interested in something, you can get to it very easily.
So I love that.
Debra Erickson: Well put. I like that. I'm gonna use that.
Matthew Reeves: Free of charge. So you mentioned the tools. Let's talk about the tools. What, um, what tools are most popular? What are you most proud of? Uh, tell me about what, what you've, what you've put together.
Debra Erickson: Okay, so I'll tell you mainly about the most popular ones because those are, that, that's people come back and order
Matthew Reeves: I.
Debra Erickson: again and again or tell their friends about 'em, and so that's proof that they're useful in our, in our lives. I can tell you what my favorite one is, but that doesn't, but the, but I have data to support the ones I'm going to tell you about. One is an auto measure spout and it is a spout. [00:34:00] Um, it just got ball bearings and magnets in it. A spout you put on top of a bottle of oil or vinegar or liquid, and you tip it upside down and it dispenses a tablespoon of liquid. Then it stops
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Debra Erickson: it upside down. So if you want a second tablespoon, you have to put it upright again, and then again tip it upside down and it'll do it.
And that one is very popular. Um, it doesn't fit every bottle, but we also have a bottle that can comes with it that it fits snugly on. And so if, if you're wanting to, to, to do that, if you're unsure, if you're. Olive oil bottle is gonna be the right size.
Matthew Reeves: right.
Debra Erickson: Um, the other one is boiler alert disc, which is a ceramic disc that's about the size, about an inch and a half around and about a quarter of an inch tall.
So it's not very big, and you put it in the bottom of a pan. Of liquid. And when that liquid starts to boil, you know, when boiling happens
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: degrees, bubbles [00:35:00] come up and escape as as steam. That's what boiling is. Well, these, it stops the natural formation of BO Bubbles, so when it does start to boil, it lifts that little, especially weighted disc. Click back down so you can, so you can actually hear it audibly from across the room. You don't have to be right there monitoring it. Um, the pan. And you can also also important is what if it stop spoiling and you're making tamales or something like that. You, you need that information. So that's called a boiler disc and people love that. We have a cut glove. Which is a cut resistant glove that I, I can put it on my hand, hold my hand palm side up towards the ceiling, and then take a very sharp knife and run my hand back and forth across the knife blade across my palm. And it never cuts
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: feel the movement, I can feel the pressure, but it, it, it, it doesn't come through.
So that's a real handy one. Um, and also it's great for grading foods[00:36:00]
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Debra Erickson: and things.
Matthew Reeves: right. I think, I think even sighted people will grate the tips of their fingers when they're using a box grater. So that's,
Debra Erickson: Exactly, exactly
Matthew Reeves: I use a Kevlar glove every time I use my mandolin, which if people aren't familiar with, it's an extremely sharp and dangerous cutting tool for cutting very, very thin things.
And I can't do that visually. In fact, most people can't do that visually, which is why the tool exists. But boy is it dangerous. Uh, so.
Debra Erickson: like a razor
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, I would say if you do not have cut gloves or Kevlar gloves, please do not use a mandolin. Uh, you, you will end up in the emergency room. And I've seen two people end up in the emergency room because of mandolin, so I take that really seriously.
But it emphasizes that I, when I have my Kevlar glove on, I feel perfectly comfortable. I'm totally safe. Um, so yeah, that's a great tool. Um, it sounds like some of what. The, the tools and the videos, 'cause it's sort of, some of what you're working on is in the domain [00:37:00] of, can I do it? Independence, finding solutions to problems.
And then the other domain is safety. Can I do this without hurting myself? Or, you know, whether it's a cut or a burn, uh, or something else. Am I, am I thinking about those domains correctly?
Debra Erickson: Yeah. So it it, it's interesting because when you first think of a kitchen, you, and let's let, let's just start with young children with vision. Um, you parents often don't let them in the kitchen 'cause they're afraid they'll burn themselves or cut
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: add in the factor of vision loss and people are. Can't see, can't understand how they possibly could do it without hurting themselves. And that is where the blind kitchen comes in. And other sources as well that say you, you can do this safely, you can cut foods. You're not gonna cut your hand. You're gonna wear this little flexible glove. And if what happens is, is if I'm cutting like a carrot or something and I'm wearing that glove, if I feel contact between the [00:38:00] blade of the knife and my. Thumb or my finger, whatever hands holding the food, I'm just gonna stop
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: okay. If I hadn't been wearing the glove, it'd be too late by
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: brain got the information that it touched. So a, a lot of this stuff is very doable, but if you don't know about it and you don't, or you don't have access to it, it, it can be very intimidating. And one of the groups I am really excited about now that I'm working with, in fact, tonight I'm gonna be teaching a workshop is teaching. Parents to use the tools so they can let their kids with vision loss. Become more independent. 'cause right now, when I used to teach workshops to children with vision loss, they'd come, they'd have fun.
It was very social. But then I wouldn't get any feedback like my, I want the
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Debra Erickson: or I, you know, I, my mom wants to order the tools or whatever. So it kind of ended when the kids went out the door. They had
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Debra Erickson: experience. They, but, but I, I wasn't getting [00:39:00] the feedback. Uh, and what I did find out is that parents are afraid to let their kids in the kitchen.
And also oftentimes only one family member has vision loss. One kid, maybe your other three kids can see just fine. are ways to make the kitchen accessible. For the vision impaired child and it won't interfere with the people they can see. there's a whole curriculum around that and I think that's huge because if kids learn at a young age that they can, that they can cook, that's gonna help them with their independence skills.
Matthew Reeves: Absolutely, and I, I really like the idea that, that these tools are making in the kitchen accessible for everyone. They're not opening doors for one person and closing it for somebody else. Which, because cooking is such a community experience, it's such a communal thing. It's de I mean, gosh, when we want to get together with a friend, 98 times out of a hundred we're saying, let's get a meal together.
You know? So, uh,
Debra Erickson: to dinner.
Matthew Reeves: [00:40:00] right.
Debra Erickson: And also around holidays and stuff that's
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: there's such community around it. Family and history and storytelling and,
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: secrets and things like that. If, if you were the person that was in charge of the Thanksgiving dinner or the Hanukkah or, or pie making or whatever, and now because of age related. Vision loss. Now you don't know how you could possibly do, do that again. You lose a part of your identity and that's part of the emotional emails I get from people that said, I thought that part of me was gone, but now they, they know they can get back in the kitchen. Do they have to do it differently?
Most of the time, yeah. You
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: do it differently. 'cause you can't count on your eyes anymore. But it, uh, but it does allow people to. To regain part of, of who they were, an important part of who they were. And if you're, if you have vision loss and you used to be the one in the kitchen [00:41:00] shouting the orders and arranging the Thanksgiving, and now you're forced to sit on the couch watching a TV game, you can't see and you could care less
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: but you can hear the commotion going on in the kitchen.
It, it, it, it's important. It is so important.
Matthew Reeves: It is important, and I think that's, uh. A theme that shows up in almost every episode of this podcast is the importance of connection. Uh, and, and you're, you're describing it beautifully, just with a new lens and a new context, and it's about cooking. Uh, we, we connect through food, but we also just connect because we're doing it with other people.
Uh, and the last thing we want is for that opportunity to turn into something dangerous, uh, where we. Land ourselves, uh, in a hospital, uh, with a burn or a cut or something. So, uh, this is, it's important to that again, and do with confidence. Our focus can be on what we want our focus to be on, which is the connection I al almost other than, you know, on a [00:42:00] typical Wednesday night when we might be cooking for ourselves, but when we're cooking with other people, we're usually doing it for the connection.
Uh, it's more about that than it is about the food. Um, so when, so when the safety takes center stage, it really pulls attention away from the thing that we really want our attention to be on. Uh, so I'm, I'm, I'm really grateful to hear that, uh, what has cooking. Uh, to use the rhyming expression, what has cooking without looking done for you?
Uh, you started this journey with, with no cooking background, and now you are the go-to expert for this whole community. What has that done for you?
Debra Erickson: Well, thank you for that. Um, it has given me meaning. When you get diagnosed and subsequently lose a big part of your experience, which mine was visual, there's a feeling of hopelessness that comes over you. Like, I'm no longer who I used to be. I, you know, I can't see I'm, I, I don't know what I can do with my life [00:43:00] now It, it's always been one of my values to contribute to the world in some way. But there, there were months that went by where I was like, I, I don't have any idea. I didn't do voc rehab right away. Um, it took, it took a while for me to, to do that because I knew they were gonna make me carry a cane and stuff like that, and I didn't wanna do it. Now I'm, I'm proud of it. It's just that, yeah, it, it's like that helps me be independent in the world. so for. For the cooking without Looking has helped me to use my creativity and my problem solving and my innate urge to help make the world a better place. And the Blind Kitchen has allowed me to, incorporate all of those three values and I
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Debra Erickson: a cookie afterwards.
So.
Matthew Reeves: You get a little treat every, every, that's, that's [00:44:00] fantastic. Uh, one of the last things I wanted to ask you about, um, is. The entrepreneurial aspect of it. Um, you know, I think when people lose, get, get a new vision di a new vision loss diagnosis, one of the biggest things they fear is, you know, the activities of daily living for sure, like cooking and transportation and things of that nature.
Technology, but also career, uh, that is, is often a thing that people feel like they, they aren't gonna be able to do the job they've always done, which may or may not be true. Um, but a, a sense that. I can't make a living. I can't do anything. Um, and there's always, almost always some answer to that problem.
Um, but one of the answers that I think doesn't get talked about enough, in fact, when I was in grad school, I, I did a little report on this is, uh. The entrepreneurial route and starting your own business when you don't have to ask for accommodations from anyone, you get to do it at your in, you're exactly your [00:45:00] way.
And so I love hearing about people with any disability saying, I'm just going to start my own thing. Uh, and that's exactly what you did, and I'd love to hear about that.
Debra Erickson: I appreciate that you're asking me about that because I have to say, running a business, I think it's harder than culinary school. I mean, it's just that things I, I did not know that. I really didn't know that it was gonna be this difficult when I could see I sold on eBay and stuff like that, so I had a little bit of idea of, you know, communicating with customers and stuff, but When I decided to start the Blind Kitchen, um, it, it, it, first of all, accessibility issues. There are so many websites that are and forms that are not accessible to me. And actually, yeah, I. Was applying to, uh, to do a business with a, a certain state blind school, and they require me to submit a certain form. So I had Ira, I love Ira. It's helped me remote [00:46:00] into my computer, help me fill in the inaccessible form and apply a signature to it, and now I have to do a wet signature.
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Debra Erickson: like, really? I have to use a real pen? Not yet. You can't even read my signature anymore. The nuns would roll over in their grave if they saw my signature Now I'm sure. But it, it just, there's been a, it's been a challenge, you know, so technology is probably the main one. Customer service has been fine. And the other thing is he finding good help to. Get the products into the packages and going out to the right person in a timely way. That's more challenging than I thought it would be, but it, it's the way of the world and this is the way this business goes and I'm happy to do it, but it's been more challenging than I thought. There are a. Quite a few blind entrepreneurs out there, and sometimes we get together on panels and stuff like that. So I, I learned from them. But to tell you the truth, as an entrepreneur, it's a pretty lonely world. You spend a lot of time growing your business and [00:47:00] answering emails and getting packages out and stuff like that. It, it tends to be, um. Very rewarding, but also a little bit isolating by the nature of it, which I did not expect that to be the case, but that's been my experience.
Matthew Reeves: I really appreciate that answer. 'cause you're highlighting both the pros and the cons. And I think this, this show is all about emotional honesty. So, uh, you being willing to, to say Yeah, yeah, it's, it, it has its highs and its lows, uh, and. And that may be worth it for some people. It may not be worth it for others.
It really is a per a personal decision and what you can tolerate and, and what is distressing and what's not distressing. Some people love being alone. Uh, so that that's not the same thing as as true isolation. So people just like to be alone. That's fine. Um, so.
Debra Erickson: true.
Matthew Reeves: If it's, if it's right for you, then it's right for you.
I think the, the real takeaway that I would, that I'm hearing and that I would love to highlight is that it's a possibility, [00:48:00] um, that without vision you can start your own thing and run your own business and be your own boss. Um, and, and that's, that's not inac, that is in not definitionally inaccessible.
Um, so there are people that do it.
Debra Erickson: Right. You just gotta access the resources. Like I was speaking of ira, they
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: me so much with my computer and connection problems and things like that. And um, so it's there if you want it, but you have to take the extra step to give them a call
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Debra Erickson: I need help with this.
Matthew Reeves: right.
Debra Erickson: you spoke earlier, sometimes asking for help that. Never been my strongest point. I can do it, I can do it myself, but I, I am now to the point like you and I think asking for help, whether it be in a restaurant or on a bus or whatever, it, it us w. When I used to ride the buses, I would sit there and people would not talk to me at all, or they'd come up and bless me or something, but it's of a crazy world.
But it, it felt very, I was alone in a crowd, basically. [00:49:00] But if you initiate communication, I think it, it tells people that blind people aren't freaks, you know, they just can't see.
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: they have normal conversations and, and so I think when we do ask for help, and it has to be valid, you know, for help that you, you do need it, that it, that it opened up connections and it helps advocate for the blind community in general that we are just normal people that just have vision problems.
Matthew Reeves: Well, I'd like to offer a reframe on the idea of asking for help, and I, I don't think it's, I don't think it's opposed to independence. I don't think they're two. They're opposite ends of some spectrum. I think if we ask for help. Then the help we receive is still ours to claim. We are still doing it ourselves by asking for help.
That's just the tool we're using. That's like, that's like saying, uh, I guess a metaphor might be that if you're a carpenter and you use a hammer that you don't get to say that you built it. [00:50:00] Of course you did. You, you just used a tool. Asking for help for some from somebody else is just a tool. You're still getting it done.
Uh, so I, I would like to offer that reframe.
Debra Erickson: I love that reframe and it of interest. There's another app called Be My Eyes. I'm sure a lot of people have heard
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: where they have volunteers that will pick up your phone call. Um, it's a very easy interface
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: has time and energy will pick it up and they, they know there's gonna be a blind person at the other end or a person with vision loss that needs help with
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: and, and they use the camera, their phone of my phone, they can see through it. From, from remote, but they can see what's going on. And there are more people signed up to be volunteers than there are blind people using the service.
Matthew Reeves: Wow.
Debra Erickson: want to help
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah.
Debra Erickson: do so in a way, in some circumstances, not all, of course, but you may be giving someone a gift by asking them for [00:51:00] help and allowing them to help make your day a little bit better.
That that, that's a
Matthew Reeves: Yeah,
Debra Erickson: when
Matthew Reeves: that shows up a lot in work. The work I do with clients where people will feel like, well, if I ask for help, I'm being a burden. And I say, well, the people who want to help you, perhaps you're helping them feel valuable.
Debra Erickson: Right, right. And and if you're being a burden, you'll know
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: and
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Debra Erickson: And their
Matthew Reeves: You will pick up on it. Yeah. And, and then you can talk about it and figure it out and like, that's, that's not the end of the world.
I, if somebody is, if, if we are pushing somebody, a, a helper to their limit and they, they're running out of resources or patients, okay. Let's talk about it. Let's see if we can figure out a better way. Let's see. Like, we don't have to be afraid of that. That's, that's, that's okay. Um, that's honest and we're showing up, honestly to a relationship and what else is a relationship for, if not that.
So, um, well, before we wrap up, I always like to ask pretty much every guest if there, if [00:52:00] there's anything we haven't touched on or any other final messages you'd like to make to, to offer, uh, to our listeners.
Debra Erickson: So I, I, I would, there is one and that is that the baby boomers are going through their aging years now. They're in their sixties, seventies, eighties. And with aging often comes vision loss. So
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Debra Erickson: a, a larger proportion of our society that has vision loss. And a lot of those people don't identify as blind or low vision or death. Grandpa's hard of
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Debra Erickson: grandma just can't see as well as she used to. So they're, they're never going to access something like the blind kitchen, even though they're having problems cooking again. So I would encourage people, if you have someone in your family that is struggling, I don't, I don't have any need to assign people a label of blindness or low vision or.
Or hard of hearing or whatever, but if you see them struggling, there are resources [00:53:00] out there for whatever task it is that just to be open to looking for those and, and getting those for those people so that they can contribute more fully to the occasion.
Matthew Reeves: Right. Whether it's a birthday present or a stocking stuffer, if you celebrate Christmas or you know, whatever it may be. Uh, just to say, Hey,
Debra Erickson: it.
Matthew Reeves: hey, I noticed, I noticed that you were having a hard time getting three quarters of a cup of milk into when you were baking. Uh, here's, here's a measuring cup designed for people with low vision.
Uh, or I noticed that, that you were real close to that splattering oil when you were trying to get the temperature. Here's a talking thermometer. You're right people, uh, for are, you know, they're experiencing their own story and that may not include identifying. As a person with low vision. So they may never even consider looking for those specific tools.
And you never know what door you might be opening to a whole world of access by saying, oh, this is useful. What else might, what else out there might be useful? [00:54:00] Uh, yeah. That's, that's great. Thank you for that thought and thanks for being here. I really enjoyed our conversation. It was, uh, very illuminating and I'm so, uh, glad you're, the work you're doing is in the world.
Thanks. Thanks so much.
Debra Erickson: I enjoy what you do as well, and thank you so much for having me. I.
Matthew Reeves: Absolutely my pleasure.
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OUTRO
Matthew Reeves: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Insight Out. You are the reason this podcast exists and we'd love to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. That's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. There, you can share your thoughts about today's conversation, suggest a topic for a future episode, or tell us about your experience living with vision loss. Again, that's [00:55:00] speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Insight Out is produced by Integral Mental Health Services, my private practice that offers psychotherapy for adults in Georgia and disability adjustment and chronic illness counseling nationwide. Visit us at integralmhs.com and you can visit insightoutpod.com to catch up on all the episodes and to find links for subscribing in all the major podcast apps. A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube. Search for the channel, using the handle @inSightOutPod. You can also find us on social media using that same handle. I hope you'll join us for the next episode of inSight Out. Subscribe now in your favorite podcast app to stay connected. Thanks again for listening.