Living with a Chronic Condition with Destiny Davis LPC CRC
I am thrilled to welcome Destiny Davis to the show, a Licensed Professional Counselor and Certified Rehabilitation counselor who specializes in the complex world of chronic illness. Destiny brings a unique dual perspective to our conversation as both a professional in the field and a family member who grew up navigating the impact of her father’s sudden blindness and a traumatic brain injury. Today, we explore the "bio-psychosocial" impact of living with a disability and why the concept of "scaffolding" is essential for both ourselves and those who support us. Get ready for a deep dive into the importance of aligning our daily actions with our core values, even when faced with life-altering challenges.
Holding the Hand That Holds the World
As a psychotherapist who has lived with legal blindness for years, I often find myself talking to clients about the "weight" of their diagnosis. But in my recent conversation with Destiny Davis, a fellow Licensed Professional Counselor and Certified Rehabilitation Counselor, we touched on something I think we often feel but rarely name: the exhaustion of having to teach the world how to treat us while we are still learning how to exist in it ourselves.
Destiny’s story is unique. She grew up with a father who became blind and paralyzed following a motorcycle accident when she was just eleven. She watched him navigate a world that was suddenly entirely different, where even the placement of a cup on a rolling table became a battleground for autonomy. Her insights into the "bio-psychosocial" impact of disability—how it ripples through our physical bodies, our mental health, and our social environments—struck a deep chord with me.
The Truth of Two Things
One of the most powerful points Destiny made right at the start of our talk was about the necessity of holding two truths at once. For those of us with low vision, those truths often look like this: I am grieving the sight I have lost, AND I am capable of building a life full of meaning. Or, The world is not built for me, AND I have the creativity to find my way through it.
When we stop fighting the "cognitive dissonance" of our situation and accept that life is complex, we give ourselves grace. We stop drowning in the "shoulds" and start swimming in the "is".
Scaffolding: For Us and For Them
We spent a significant portion of our time discussing "scaffolding". In child development, scaffolding is when a teacher or parent holds a child’s hand at the bottom of a ladder and only lets go once they feel confident. As adults adjusting to vision loss, we need that same support—often through therapy or community.
However, the "unjust burden," as I call it, is that we often have to scaffold the people around us too. Our family members and friends are often scared of getting it wrong. They may offer help we don't need or stay silent when we need them to speak up. Destiny suggested a brilliant tool: creating a shared Google Drive or PowerPoint for loved ones. It provides a place to put the "words" that often fail us in the heat of a moment, allowing our support systems to learn on their own time without us having to repeat ourselves while we’re already fatigued.
Living by Values, Not by Symptoms
Perhaps the most therapeutic part of our discussion centered on values. When you live with a chronic condition, it is so easy to let your symptoms—the fatigue, the blurriness, the pain—become your primary identity. But as Destiny pointed out, if we align our behaviors with our values—like kindness, courage, or health—the "outcome" matters less.
If I value health and I choose to get good sleep and stay hydrated, I am successful in my values regardless of whether my vision improves that day. This separation allows us to say: I am not my disability; I am the person who lives with a disability. That distinction is where peace lives.
Moving Forward
If you are feeling isolated or "unseen" in your journey, please know that your frustration is a normal response to an environment that isn't always set up for you. But like the cell towers that eventually covered the country, our community is building the infrastructure of support we need.
Keep advocating, keep scaffolding when you have the energy, and most importantly, keep holding onto the truth that you deserve access to a rich and gratifying world.
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Living with vision loss or a chronic condition often feels like navigating a world that isn't quite built for you. In this episode, Matthew Reeves sits down with Destiny Davis, LPC, CRC, a therapist dedicated to the chronic illness community. Destiny shares her powerful personal history, growing up with a father who navigated blindness and a traumatic brain injury, and how that lived experience now informs her clinical work. Together, they explore the "bio-psychosocial" layers of disability—how it affects our bodies, our minds, and our social connections.
The conversation delves into the common frustrations of being misunderstood or "gaslit" by the medical community and the isolation that often follows. Destiny introduces the concept of "scaffolding"—the process of providing emotional and logistical support to ourselves and our loved ones as we learn to navigate new challenges. She shares practical tools, like using shared documents to help explain the nuances of a condition to family members, which can reduce physical stress and improve advocacy.
Finally, we discuss the role of values-based living. Destiny explains how making decisions based on what we value—rather than just our symptoms—can give our lives meaning and purpose even when an "outcome" like a cure isn't on the horizon. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to bridge the gap between their disability and a rich, gratifying life.
Topics Covered: Chronic illness and vision loss, bio-psychosocial impact of disability, medical gaslighting and microaggressions, the concept of scaffolding in relationships, tools for self-advocacy, values-based decision making, navigating the grief of disability, the importance of Certified Rehabilitation Counselors (CRCs), and finding autonomy through assistive technology.
Destiny can be reach at:
404-905-3391
ABOUT THE PODCAST
inSight Out is your podcast home for living well with vision loss. Host Matthew Reeves (LPC CRC NCC) is a legally-blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor specializing in helping people thrive while living with disability. Matthew is licensed in Georgia and is a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor.
Please be sure to subscribe to catch every episode. And remember to share the show with others in the blind and low-vision community!
CONNECT WITH US
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©Integral Mental Health Services, LLC
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The following transcript is AI generated and likely contains errors.
[00:00:00]
COLD OPEN
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: that level of like acceptance that two things can be true.
Two seemingly opposite things can be true at the same time is really, really imperative for me as a human to live every day without like feeling like I am drowning. Like that, that's probably one of the things that like keeps me afloat or keeps me hopeful or keeps me going every single day, is remembering that the like two things can be true, even if they feel opposite at the same time, and that things are usually more complex than they seem.
So that allows you to give you a little bit of grace to yourself, to the people around you.
INTRO
Matthew Reeves: You're listening to Insight Out a podcast about living well with low vision. Maybe you're feeling confused, scared, isolated, or disheartened about a recent vision loss diagnosis, [00:01:00] or maybe you've been managing your vision loss for a while and now you want to hear from others about how to continue growing and thriving. Insight Out is your supportive space to find healthy and impactful tools to build and maintain a truly rich and gratifying life with low or no vision.
I'm Matthew Reeves. I'm a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor. I specialize in helping people adjust to disability through my practice, integral Mental Health Services in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm really glad you're listening.
Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and let others in the low vision community know about the podcast so the word can spread to those who might find it helpful. And now on with today's discussion.
TOPIC INTRO
Alex: this is placeholder for generic voiceover.
INTERVIEW
Alex: This is placeholder for generic voiceover.
Matthew Reeves: Destiny, welcome to Insight Out. Thanks for, uh, being here and giving us some time today. Uh, it was a privilege to be on your [00:02:00] podcast some, several months ago, and so I, I, I'm grateful that you're returning the favor.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Um, you have, uh, an unusual perspective, uh, in terms of, um, the guests I've had on this show.
One is that you are the family member of somebody with a vision impairment, but you also work. In the space of chronic illness, uh, as, as that's been the focus of your career as a therapist and I've gotten to know you and, and as a colleague and, and really come to, uh, respect your opinion and admire the work you're doing.
And when I was on your podcast, it was, it was more about it, the broad themes. Of chronic illness and chronic conditions and talking specifically about vision impairment. And here it's kind of the opposite. We usually sp focus on that very specific thing and you bring a broader perspective, which I'm excited to hear about. But um, before we get into that, I would love to hear your story as it relates to vision impairment, [00:03:00] uh, in your family, and so our audience can have a sense of that.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, it's interesting. Um, I think my whole story might also be a little bit different 'cause there's so many, um, complex complexities, uh, involved. But yeah, when I was 11, my dad was in a motorcycle accident, so that left him blind and paralyzed from the waist down. Um, when it first happened, uh, honestly, so he also had, he has a TBI and, um, like at first, could not remember anything more than like three seconds.
Like al like that very like, yeah.
Matthew Reeves: brain injury, just for people who may not know the acronym. Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Right? Yes. Yeah. Traumatic injury, which, you know, has a million different presentations, but his, like at first was very much like the movies. Like what time is it? 1233 seconds later. Hey, what time is it? It was like that. Um, and so honestly, the, the blindness was like the least, I don't even know if we knew that that was really an issue until like a year and a half later.
Matthew Reeves: Wow.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: couldn't, [00:04:00] he couldn't talk for like almost a year and a half. He had a trach in his throat, a trachea, it's like a, um, external, uh, breathing tube, um, so that he could breathe. Um, so there were, so there were so many co complexities. So by the time that, um, you know, he started really being like, healing and, and being able to, um.
Sit and eat and kind of do some, some of those things. Um, the, the blindness actually always took a bit of a bl a backseat. So, and I'm just thinking about that as you're asking this question now. I'm like, just realizing that, um, there was just so many other things happening and, and he lives in a, he lived in and lives in, uh, a hospital where everything is taken care of for him.
You know, he's, um, he's not able to live by himself, but that's not because he's blind. That's because of. Everything together. The TBI plus the paralysis plus blindness. Um, yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Just the level of care is so [00:05:00] great that that living outside of a clinical environment is just.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: or too too difficult.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Exactly. He used to, um, be good friends with this guy that I, he had met like. In the hospital that he was first at. And he used to really daydream a lot of living alone, just like this. This guy did, this guy was blind, um, but didn't have the other, I think he was blind and in a wheelchair, but he just still didn't have the level of complexity that my dad's, um, injuries gave.
And so, yeah, I just remember for a long time, like. He would just kind of daydream about that and say like, yeah, one day, you know, like, like the so and so. I can't remember his name now, but like, so and so, maybe I can live alone. Maybe I can. And he's really, um, I think he's, I just bought him the meta glasses, uh, the, the, um.
Like, those are the glasses that actually I don't even fully know how they work. He knows how they work better than I do now. Um, and, and it came back up again. He was like, maybe this could help me live alone [00:06:00] again. Um, I, I don't think that that's gonna happen because of the complexities, but um, regardless, anything we can do to give him more autonomy, more, um, where it feels like he's able to kind of see his surroundings.
I think the glasses are, are doing that for him a little bit. Um, but it's.
Matthew Reeves: And as a side note, I'll just uh, mention for anybody's listening that the meta glasses are. Coming up a lot in the, the world of assistive technology for the vi, for the visually impaired. I don't focus on assistive technology in this podcast because there are so many people who are doing that really well.
So let, I'll stay in my lane and let them do that thing, but I, but if anybody's listening who hasn't heard about that, I wanna let, encourage them to. Do some research and look up the meta glasses and, and figure out, you know, that's one of the ways that AI is really opening some brand new doors, uh, in terms of assistive technology.
So it's a pretty exciting space.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, absolutely.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: do you, has, [00:07:00] uh, I am curious, and that was when you, your, your father was injured when you were pretty young. and now you. professionally in the space of, of chronic illness and chronic conditions. Did that, are those two things connected?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, but what's interesting is that I actually never really connected it with my dad. I think because there was like so much help and, um, again, everything being taken care of for him because he's always lived in the va. Um. And so it really was, it was really my, my mom, I think, uh, I think I did a, a lot of emotional caretaking for her and she has a lot of, um, both physical and mental disabilities.
So it, it just, I think I just was used to being in that caretaker role, which means that when I went through school to become a therapist, a lot of the interpersonal work I had to do was around. Like what it means to be a therapist and to not care take, uh, necessarily for clients and to not project your own experiences onto them.
But, [00:08:00] but my experience has definitely influenced, yeah. And both my parents growing up with both parents with a disability. Um, I think I was just, I'm just like used to that world and, and more, more specifically with my mom. I watched her my whole life be dismissed by doctor, after doctor, after doctor.
Telling her she just needed to lose weight and she was just anxious. And now we know so much more, like, so much more the, the research that's coming out over the last year, even around things like biologic, encephalitis, uh, I can't over say it right, but it's me, CFS, chronic fatigue syndrome, um, and things like that.
You know, that was really like people just 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you were just dramatic and you just wanted attention. You're fatigued. Oh, everybody gets fatigued. Like these were the things that, that people were hearing. Um, people, women especially, but I think anybody who who has these experiences will definitely have some level of gaslighting around what it actually [00:09:00] means and how much control you have over how you feel.
Um.
Matthew Reeves: and, and I've seen that show up time and time again, including in my own experience with even vision loss, something so. more objective than fatigue and it still shows up, uh, with, uh, you know, you're just faking it or, or this condition. We, we, because we can't figure out what's wrong, it must not be real.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: that is just so harmful. And I, I, I wish I could just talk to every doctor in the world and say, stop doing that. Please stop doing that.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: yeah,
Matthew Reeves: yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: this is actually what my talk is gonna be at in the conference in March. So I'm hosting a conference this March for professionals. Um, who do this work with, with chronic illness? That's PTs, CRCs, uh, other therapists. My talk is actually about the bio-psychosocial impact of living without a diagnosis or just not being believed.
And bio-psychosocial for those listening bio is just the body. Psycho is the, the mental, the cognitive [00:10:00] and social is, you know, your social kind of environment. And there are impacts that happen on each of those levels. When you don't have a diagnosis, or let's say you have one, but it's one that no one really believes or takes seriously.
Matthew Reeves: Right. Yeah. It gets dismissed so often. Yeah. I, there's a number of doctors in my life and I, and these are people I love and care about, and they're my friends and. I still hear dismissive comments because
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: work in a clinical environment that's challenging and they're human too. And, and it's not always personal about the patient, but it is.
That doesn't mean it doesn't impact the patient when, when they hear it's almost like medical microaggressions sometimes. that, that we just all have to, I think. When we're professionals, we need to be really mindful that that's a thing that we can be doing inadvertently. And when we're a patient, we can normalize that and understand how much harm that's doing for us.
And that is normal. That, that does harm, that, that's
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: to receive. Yeah. How do [00:11:00] you, do you work with folks with, with chronic conditions all day, every day? Um, what, what are the things after living it as a lived experience in your own personal life and then coming into it professionally and making that transition? Not that the first one doesn't still exist now. Now you're doing both. Um, but what has surprised you or what have you learned that maybe you weren't expecting about the, about living with a chronic condition or a disability?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, I think probably that. There's lessons in all of it. And that's not to be like super kind of toxic, positive, like, oh, just, you know, look at the lessons you learned from this really hard thing. But I do think that my 'cause, and I didn't say this earlier, but I do also live with a lot of the same conditions that, again, my mom, I think was never properly diagnosed, but I have a lot of the symptoms and experiences that she had when I was growing up.
So, um, you know, the, the lessons is that, that my, my chronic illness really mirrors my life and my life really [00:12:00] mirrors my chronic illness. Everything from, like, I tend to be a pretty impatient person and so that impatience will mirror. How I manage my chronic illness, or, you know, my chronic illness might make me more impatient because I'm like fatigued and I don't have extra bandwidth, et cetera, et cetera.
So. There's just a lot of mirroring and I think that that's helpful to know and reflect on it. It gives me a little bit more perspective when I'm trying to figure out what's within my control and what's not. Um, nothing is really ever black and white. There's usually like elements that are in your control and elements that are not, and that level of like acceptance that two things can be true.
Two seemingly opposite things can be true at the same time. Is really, really imperative for me as a human to live every day without like feeling like I am drowning like that. That's probably one of the things that like keeps me afloat or keeps me hopeful or keeps me going every [00:13:00] single day, is remembering that the like two things can be true, even if they feel opposite at the same time, and that things are usually more complex than they seem.
So that allows you to give you a little bit of grace to yourself, to the people around you. Because we get really hung up on, like, I, I just, I just heard it yesterday, like my, uh, and this, this was a, a friend, um, nothing clinical, but it was like, you know, my daughter, um, I know she can't have a DHD because she is able to sit down and focus when she wants to.
And I'm like, that's actually pretty hallmark of PhD.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: That almost like tells me she has it. So it's just like people really. You know, we, we, we don't like, as humans, we don't like cognitive dissonance when, when there's two seemingly different stories, but learning that everything is not as it seems. And if you just go one layer deeper, there's usually a good reason.
I mean, that's, yeah, it's true when it comes to cognitive stuff like [00:14:00] a DHD or physical stuff like chronic fatigue or all of these other chronic conditions that people deal with even, you know, autoimmune conditions, diabetes like. People just have so many misconceptions. Like you, you get an autoimmune condition and people think like, okay, rheumatoid arthritis, and, uh, your joints hurt.
So sorry. That sucks. And it's like, no, it's a, it's a full body. You also experience chronic fatigue. You also experience the, the full body experience of having so much inflammation in your body, um, that is not just achy joints at all.
Matthew Reeves: Right, right. That's a different condition with a different name.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, exactly.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. We, you, you talked about. Um, control and you talked about misconceptions by other people about what people are going through, and I think. Those two things are really big topics for folks living with vision impairment or blindness. Because with blindness there's so many, like it's not an ebb of flow and you don't [00:15:00] have, in your eyes, you have like no control and that's like, it's very persistent and pervasive in your daily life. So there's a So what, so I'd
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: two questions and I'll try and take 'em one at a time, but, but in terms of the control. Can you talk more about the importance of identifying control and not control and why that's helpful for people?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Absolutely. I think, I think I was talking about what's in your control versus not, but you're bringing me down and like I'm thinking of a different thing. So I'm going to answer it in this, this new kind of way, which is, and the example I'll give is. I remember my dad one time getting really angry about me not putting his, so he lays in a, in a hospital bed, and he has a table that, like a rolling table.
Um, and that table is, it's his whole world really. He knows where his cup goes. He knows where his, um, you know, plate goes. He knows where his phone is. And I remember him getting really mad at me for not putting it back in the same spot. And this was, you know, I was probably a teenager. Um. Now, [00:16:00] he probably was more so mad just in general about nobody putting it in the right, like I was just the tip of the iceberg and that's why he got so mad at the time.
But at the time, it was like I even then I knew, like at that age, I think I had already grasped the understanding of what it means to not feel like you have any control. And so I just didn't take it personally. Like I knew that he was angry because how awful is it to not like, to not feel like you can.
Just grab your phone when you wanna grab your phone. Like you have to ask somebody else for help if the phone isn't in the right place, or like wheeling him in his wheelchair. Like you have to ask him before you touch his wheelchair, even though he physically needs you to, like, some people don't need, you don't need much help at all with their wheelchairs, but he, he can't, um, he can roll a little bit, but like, for the most part, he has to be pushed.
And so. It's, yeah, you have no control. And then the anger comes from a place of just your bandwidth is so full. You, your, your cognitive load is [00:17:00] full. You're, you know, there's no autonomy. It's, um, it's a hard place to be in. So that's like on a more, I think like a more severe level, but on a different level.
Uh, even in my own life. Um. If I'm extra fatigued that day and there might not be any good reason for it, I woke up. Sometimes I wake up and there's just this pressure, like a physical pressure in my head, and that pressure means like my bandwidth is 25% of what I'm used to. I have to adjust. I, I can't, you know, and then I've got two little kids, so their needs don't change just because mom is not feeling well.
Luckily I have a very, very supportive husband and he takes equal, equal part in, in childcare, and I'm so thankful and lucky for that I wouldn't be doing half the things I'm doing today without that. So I think that's an important point to maybe discuss too, is just support and how important that is and how to ask for it and things like that.
But, um. If you don't [00:18:00] have control, which a lot of us don't, you can't control what you see. You can't control how your energy levels are. People like to say, you know, if you just got enough sleep or if you just, with, with these conditions that are a little bit, even with like diabetes or with arthritis, it's like, yeah, well if you just, you know, did what the doctor told you to, or if you just ate this differently.
Where you're not gonna feel this way anymore. And it's like, actually these days would definitely still come. Like eating probably does impact a little bit how I feel sometimes. A lot of it. But that's really not the underlying thing that's happening here. I have a chronic condition that causes these problems.
And a bad day of eating just exacerbates it. It doesn't create it.
Matthew Reeves: And that connects to what I wanted my second question to be, which is the impact of people not understanding,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: how that does. In inside of us, uh, as its own thing, like we're dealing with the, the, the primary thing [00:19:00] that we're dealing with, which in this case would be blindness or low vision, and then we've got other people not understanding what we're dealing with, which becomes its own challenge.
And I'd love to hear your perspective on that.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, absolutely. It, um, it makes people isolate more because when we, when we try to do the thing that people tell us to do, which. If you've been in therapy, I'm sure your therapist at that point, at some point told you that you have to learn how to ask for help and things like that. But, um, what happens when you are asking for help and it's, it's done half, half-assed, or it's not done at all, or it's just a flat out no, or even worse, sometimes the person says yes, but then they never do it.
And so you're not sure when you should ask again or if you should so much cognitive mental load, um, which even in and of itself takes energy. And so we tend to isolate. Like I'm not, why would I keep asking? We go asking. You know, when somebody tries to do something over and over and over [00:20:00] again and it doesn't work, we tend to go into freeze mode.
So that's just what happens. We start to freeze. And then we might become really angry and irritable or sad and depressed or all of these different emotions that come up when we're isolated. And then what do people tell you when you're depressed? You just need to get out more. You just need to be around people.
And it's like people is why I'm here in the first place. I.
Matthew Reeves: It's such a catch 22 and, and you mentioned like the different ways that the help can be, can be offered or received in a way that's not helpful. And there's also like, when it's misunderstood, it's often that the help that's being offered is not the help we need.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: that can really lead more to a sense that like I'm just, not only can I not seen, but I'm also not being seen.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: Not only can I not see, but I'm also not being seen,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: exactly.
Matthew Reeves: more isolation and, and it can also be just incredibly because we are going [00:21:00] through something I think, especially in the world of vision impairment, I think I talk about this a lot, that it is. Extraordinarily difficult to put into words what you're dealing with.
I think it's probably also true of chronic fatigue or or RA or rheumatoid arthritis in other conditions that if somebody's not experiencing, it's just, just language fails us.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: of communicating what we're going through, which is even more isolating and more mental load and more exhaustion because we're trying so hard to explain what we're going through so that we can get the help we're asking for.
And that's if we have the, the wherewithal to ask for help in the first place. And that hasn't burned us over and over again.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Absolutely.
Matthew Reeves: many layers of challenges.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah. And I like to tell people that conversations are never supposed to be one and done. And if we actually just kind of start to recognize or accept. Conversations and asking for help in that way, that just like children, they don't learn how to tie a shoe because you gave them a lesson on how to tie a shoe.[00:22:00]
We scaffold all the time with children, um, which means we take them, we hold their hand at the bottom rung of the ladder of the learning ladder. And only once they get it, once they feel confident. So once they cognitively get it and they emotionally feel confident, do we let go of their hand and allow, and they go to the next rung of the ladder and then we hold their hand again because they don't know how to do the next rung.
And then once they get it and they feel confident. We let go. Once they get to the next rung, we hold their hand again, and most of us did not get that. So then to tell somebody like, this is how you should, you know, have your conversations with people about asking for help and advocating for yourself like.
It can feel a little bit like, well, what do you mean? Like, I, you know, I never even got that. So they don't know how to, how to do that. And that's where I think therapy for me, that's what my therapy often looks like, um, is metaphorically holding their hand until they feel really confident in a certain skill, and then encouraging them to go out and do it [00:23:00] with the, um, with letting them know and making them aware of the fact that it may not be received well.
When you go and you ask for this help, it may not be received. Well, then you can come back here, we can do a little venting and then do a little troubleshooting and a little bit of validating, and then you feel comfortable again. So it, it's about the process of this rather than the exact outcomes on the other side.
And when you see it that way, you get better and better at asking, and you also get better and better at knowing who you can ask what of. Rather than like, well, my husband's the only one here in the house, so like he's the one that I can ask. And it's like, but if he's not willing or able, then you actually can't, even though he is physically right there with you.
So let's figure out who you can. And sometimes that takes a lot of troubleshooting.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Uh, you're, you're really highlighting something that I think is so important for people who are living with a condition, uh, [00:24:00] to understand that they're not alone in, and, and maybe just put some language on, uh, and that is that when, when you're living with something like this, especially if you're adjusting to it. The early stages, you're in the middle. in the middle between like you're, you're almost caught in the middle because you're doing your own adjustment, you're doing your own scaffolding sometimes without a lot of help. You're trying to scaffold yourself, which is a, a very difficult process in a lot of cases, which is why therapy can be so useful and why support systems are so useful, but you're trying to, to build yourself up. Without a lot of support in a lot of cases, which is a really difficult thing to do while you're also trying to provide scaffolding to the people around you who genuinely do want to help and they don't know how. And you know, you offered the metaphor of tying the shoes. And as you were talking about it, a different metaphor popped in my head, which is like, how do you teach a kid how to ride a bike?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: [00:25:00] You get 'em really confident, then you let go. And sometimes you let go without even letting 'em know that you've let go. But the reason that's so difficult for the kid is because it's scary. They can fall, right?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: Like,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: exactly.
Matthew Reeves: and, and when we're scaffolding for ourselves, yes, we can fall
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: also emotionally.
But also when we're scaffolding for the people who are trying to support us, they're scared too. scared of getting it wrong. They're, they're doing something they've never done before. And they can get angry when they're scared. Like we all get angry when we're scared. Um, and so like understanding and that's, and that's, so there's a, there's a grief that I talk about, a lot of the grief of saying like, I'm the one who's dealing with this.
I'm the one who's trying to grow through it. I'm the one putting in the work and I also have to do that for somebody else. Like that feels very unjust.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: It's like, why is that burden on me? Why can't people just know [00:26:00] how to help me? And that's a completely reasonable thing to feel. And yet it's also just the reality.
It's one of those things we can't control that other people don't know what they don't know.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: know what they don't know. And, and it, and it does come when you have the energy. And that's important. When you have the energy, then it's the time
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: teach them and scaffold for them. But it's
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, I agree. I sometimes work with clients on creating PowerPoints. We'll create PowerPoints for their family members and we'll,
Matthew Reeves: that. That's great.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: we'll literally keep.
Matthew Reeves: tell me more about that.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: it's, it's great. It's great. We'll keep a Google folder together, me and the client, and so they have access and they can go in and edit it whenever they want. And then during session we can edit it together, um, further as the conversation needs. But usually I focus on either a single topic or sometimes it's a single, uh, person.
Um, and so either this PowerPoint is like. For that person in particular. And, and when the [00:27:00] client's coming in, they're, they're venting to me about how this conversation went as they were trying to ask for help or what, whatever it was. Um, I'm queuing in for like, what does that family member not understand?
And while on, on one hand, we're not supposed to bring outsiders into the therapy, therapy room and pretend we we're not trying to analyze the family member, that's, that's not what we're doing, but. After doing this work for six years straight only with chronic illness, it's, that's all I work with. There are some themes that I, I can just see now.
And so, um, you know, that PowerPoint might even be wrong because again, that, that partner may not be in the therapy room with us. But I'm very clear about that with the client and it's like, you know, I wonder if your, if your partner's not knowing this or that, let's write that in the PowerPoint and then
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: yeah, the after.
Matthew Reeves: not analyzing the third party, but it is having some empathy for them.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, exactly. Or some, even just some, uh, educated curiosity about what they might not know and, and yeah. Then trying to speak to that, that piece.
Matthew Reeves: yeah, yeah. How [00:28:00] does, how does that process help the client?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, it's one, I mean, even if they never end up showing this PowerPoint, it, I guess it's kind, this made me think, it's kind of like how a lot of us used to recommend writing letters that you might not even ever send. It's kind of the same thing, um, but just writing it out or, or s. Them, the client themselves, getting clarity on what they're feeling and how they even are trying to, like you said, sometimes the, it's the hardest thing to try to explain, explain.
Being blind or explain living with chronic fatigue, it's very difficult to explain. So I do think a part of my job is to help people figure out the words, because when we have words for our experiences, it actually reduces the physical stress in our body.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: So if they're doing this, and also most of my clients do have something like A DHD or other cognitive deficits that they're working with.
And so the writing it down means they can come back to this whenever they want. That's why I do it in a Google drive because I [00:29:00] just, I'm, I do know the whole AI thing. I need to figure that out. Previously it was very, it was HIPAA compliant to just have that BAA signed. But I need to figure out the whole AI thing.
Um, however, it's all with consent and most of my clients are like, yeah, I don't, I don't care. It's fine. Um. But again, Google Drive, they have it with them at any, they can open it from their phone, they can open it on their computer, they can look at it whenever they're feeling stressed and be like, oh yeah, this is the words.
These are the words we came up with in therapy that accurately describes my situation. So again, even if they never share it with the family member, they have this thing that helps remind them what they're feeling and that reduces stress.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, so that the creation of that document is the scaffolding for the client and the sharing of the document is the scaffolding for the loved one and the, and support system that all, all in one place. That's pretty, that's a great tool. I'm probably gonna steal that.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yes, please do. It's been wildly helpful. [00:30:00] Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: What do you, uh, I wanna change gears a little bit, uh, because, you know, we had talked before this, uh, a little bit, and one of the things you had talked about wanting to share was the value of, well, I'm, that's very meta the value of values and identifying values, um, and, and making decisions based on those values.
And I'm really curious how values intersects with chronic conditions or disabilities.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question because it's so not very simple, and I think when we teach values, even from the lens of acceptance and commitment therapy, I think it can be really oversimplified. And so, you know, to just tell someone like I. Don't worry about the end goal here. Just, um, you know, focus on your values and if you wanna be a kind person, then you show up kind in every situation regardless of what the outcome is.
And I, I don't teach it like that. Um, it's more like sometimes it takes, so [00:31:00] sometimes it takes troubleshooting, sometimes it takes pausing for grief when we're trying to explore values. Um. Especially when it comes to health, like technically health is on the values list. Do you value health? So then sometimes we have to define what health means because some people have this image that it just means like seeing, hearing, uh, walking, uh, fitness bro, gym kind of thing.
Um, six pack abs.
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: And that's not what health means. Health sometimes means even just more emotional health, like being able to have a healthy, solid relationships with the people around you. Maybe that's what gives you a sense of health. So the values work is figuring out what's important to you, why it's important to you, and then trying to make every single decision that you make through the lens of your top most important values.
So for, again, for a lot of people that is health. That is like, honestly one of the, the [00:32:00] biggest values I think most people. And, and there's so much grief in that. So a lot of redefining there. Um, other values are, might be courage or, um, persistence or kindness. And so I also really like clients to understand when you're making these decisions from a place of your values, you have to also have to figure out which value like.
Helps me make the decision in this particular scenario, sometimes you have to be kind over, um, straightforward, and then sometimes you have to be, you know, the opposite. And all of that takes a cognitive load in figuring out, um, which takes energy, which is why again, I think therapy. Is so helpful, especially if you are doing this kind of like weekly or biweekly regular therapy.
Sometimes, you know, sometimes I have, I don't have too many of these anymore, but sometimes my clients will be like, I don't have anything to talk about this week. And I'm like, you mean nothing bad happened this week? We've got plenty to talk about, but you, you know,[00:33:00]
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: but if you have this idea that therapy is just a place to come and vent, which it can be that some sessions, but there's so much, there's, there's so much other things, so many other things that we can learn.
Matthew Reeves: What do you find the benefit of or behavior, alignment with values, and how does that intersect with the, the. The burden or I, I'm sometimes reluctant to use the word burden. 'cause I don't think everybody feels like their conditioned is a burden. Sometimes. It's really very much part of your identity, and they, they take a lot of pride in that.
So burden
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: sometimes a problematic word, but
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: load, the, the load that maybe comes, I, I'm, that's just a synonym for burden. So I'm a great job here. But, but, but I think, you know what I mean,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: something about the, the pressure of that. Um, and how does, how does values and behavior alignment intersect with, with that?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I think I'm, I'm having like a little bit of a, a [00:34:00] hard time coming out with a clear answer, but I do really know what you're asking. I, I think when you make decisions from a place of values, the outcome is, uh, this is nuanced, but it's tech technically doesn't matter. Um, it does, and it
Matthew Reeves: me more.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: like technically, if you are every day.
You're going to bed, you're getting good sleep, you're drinking your water, you're doing all the thi, you're taking your medication, you're doing all the things that are health-promoting behaviors. It doesn't matter if you still have a disability at the end of the day because those things that you're doing in, in the, um.
From a place of my value is health, give meaning and purpose to your life. It makes you feel better, even if the outcome remains that you still have a disability. Now again, that's sometimes people are not ready to hear that there's a lot of grief work in that because maybe they haven't processed enough of like, but this disability took away X, Y, and z for me, I am grieving this.
And it's like, that is fair, and that is [00:35:00] so okay. Um, that's a part of this process. But at some point, usually people get to a place where. They're kind of done grieving. There's no more, it's just, it's done. We don't have much more to, to like process about it, about the grief of it Now. Now grief does ebb and flow throughout our life.
It might come back up later on, but this is more like, I'm thinking of a, a short burst. Right. Um, and then what do we do? Yeah, go ahead.
Matthew Reeves: uh, I, it's, as you were saying that it was occurring to me that this connects to something you were talking about earlier. Like if you're doing all the things that promote your value in this case health, you're sleeping, your drink, your hydration,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: your exercise, like you're, you're making all those decision. And yet, at the end of the day, you still have a condition
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: and burdensome. What you have done is put your energy into the things you can control.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Right, right.
Matthew Reeves: is. It is about saying, this is what I can control. I am doing the best I can with what I've got. [00:36:00] I'm not leaving anything on the field.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yep.
Matthew Reeves: bringing my full self to this situation, and which means that my relationship, if I'd done that, then my relationship with my disability may be fraught and may be challenging, but my relationship with myself can be very. Comfortable and at peace because I haven't, I haven't asked anything of myself that I haven't been able to bring. Right. And so it's like kind of separating out, like, I am not my disability. I am the person who lives with a disability and that person I like a lot, my disability. I may not,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: it may bring some strengths.
It may it, like, I know that's nuanced too, but I can have a different relationship with my disability than I have with myself.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: that that's what came to mind as I was listening to you talk. So I'm really grateful for that. I've never thought about that in those terms before.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: absolutely. Yeah. And you were saying something about. You know, sometimes people do choose to be in the identity, and I think that that's from a place of, you know, I'm not gonna let [00:37:00] anybody make me feel like, and I'm not, I'm not less than, I'm not right? And so we form this identity around it, and it can be real, it can be really healthy.
I do think also on both sides, right, there can be problematic pieces and good pieces. And on that side, some of the problematic pieces is that. I think you do tend to get in like a, I've accepted this, everybody else should too. Which, yes, they should, but like are you giving them the time to scaffold the same way you did?
You probably started this process five years ago before you got to that place, so they might not need that time too. And it can be really frustrating and hard. To kind of go back into that and to scaffold with other people because you're kind of tired of it. You're like, I fought really hard to get here to a place where I love myself and I accept myself and I can, you know, and everybody else should just be here now, but unfortunately,
Matthew Reeves: spent so much time swimming in those waters. I want a new vista, and these people are making me swim in the same waters again, and I
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: yeah.
Matthew Reeves: to, yeah, I can because there's a delay, uh, because they're not the ones living with it first. It's second hand or [00:38:00] third hand. So there's always, almost always a delay between the thing. When I deal with the thing, and then when I help other people deal with the same thing. Um, that's really challenging and normal, uh, you know, I think it's important that people hear that, that a normal process and the frustration they're feeling other people have felt too, and there's nothing wrong with them for feeling it. Um, thing you mentioned that you, that you wanted to touch on in this conversation was, uh, the how to cope when accommodations. Simply don't manifest or they're not available, or there's challenges with that. And that shows up a lot because we live in a world that's not built for us.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yep.
Matthew Reeves: Um, it's, it's not built for any one person.
Uh, but when we live with a, a chronic condition or a disability, it's really not built for us so much. And so accommodations are, are so often the exception, not the rule.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: how do you help clients face that reality and still say, stay satisfied and gratified with who they are?[00:39:00]
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that. It's, it's hard for some people to hear this, but we have come so far in our accommodations in this country. Um, honestly, and I have clients that travel overseas and, and they're like a, actually the US is like above and beyond when it comes to. Sidewalks and I, and there's so much left to be desired.
And, and so that's why it's a hard conversation to have 'cause there's so much that like still needs to be better about our accommodation systems. But we do have a lot in place now. This current administration is trying to dismantle all of that and, and that is a thing. But, um, yeah, my, we've, we have paved the road for, for it.
It will come back even if things are lost. Um, now that's. You know, to say that to somebody who needs the accommodations, who live a full and meaningful life is, is it's difficult. It's difficult to hear that. And, and I, I honor and respect that. So it's a little bit of like [00:40:00] objective, just what is, and then the subjective of.
Okay, so you need this accommodation in order to be happier, live a better life, et cetera, et cetera. So like how, how can we get creative? What can we do here? And again, that's a mental load. That is, that I do take on heavily with my clients when needed. Um, I let them know, like, I am, I'm in this with you.
This isn't just like a. I'm telling you to go do this, and then in between session you go figure it out alone. Like I am sometimes calling schools and helping with accommodations. I'm, um, getting creative and really brainstorming and trying to think and put myself in their shoes. What would my life be like if I was, uh, blind in a wheelchair?
My fatigue was worse than it is now. Uh, things like that. Um. It's unfortunate and that just, that takes community. So sometimes I am the only community in that aspect and my, what I'm also doing with clients is helping them figure out who they, [00:41:00] who else they can get creative with in their life. Who, who has just enough safety.
Like maybe they're not jumping at the bit to like. Give you all these accommodations, but you also don't feel judged by them if you were to talk about it. So is there some relative safety there and you can go and have these conversations with other people in your life and how do we get creative? Um, yeah, I mean, I think.
Matthew Reeves: as a, as a quick sidebar, uh, I'll say that, um, if people are looking for professional help with getting that community. Therapy is a fantastic way to start. And the, the credential that both you and I share that goes beyond professional counselor is that of CRC or, or, um, certified rehabilitation counselor. that, gives us some extra tools in our toolkit for doing that, brainstorming and doing that advocacy work so that people feel like we are really. More than, more than talk therapy that we show up in a [00:42:00] different, we have the capacity to show up in a different way. Not to say that other therapists would not show up in that way, but that's a specific thing that, that CRCs are trained to do.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: if you're, so, if somebody's looking for a therapist and they need that kind of help, out a CRC who does therapy, uh, might be, uh, a really advantageous thing to do to, to make, feel like you have that support.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: You just made me think of an idea, 'cause I have a directory on my website of therapists who specialize in chronic illness and it's all self-identified. So I'm not, there's no vetting process on my end. But if a, if a therapist says I specialize in chronic illness, they can put themselves on my my directory, but not all of us have the same set of skills.
And also set of beliefs. Some people are much into the chronic illness can be cured with, um, you know, spirituality and, uh, thinking positively. And others are like, uh, yeah, no, this is like, this is more logistics and science and et cetera, et cetera. And they [00:43:00] really. There's no, there can be a right or wrong.
I'm not even gonna try to say that there can be a right or wrong. Um, um, my bias is coming out a little bit, but, um, but sometimes people do actually need, like, some of the spiritual help. Like they want that, they, they're in that journey and so Cool. That's great. You should work with a therapist. You can help you with that.
Other times, like you're saying. Sometimes we just really need the, the legal and physical accommodations that help me. I mean, I can't tell you how many clients I've worked with just to help them get a mobility aid, whether that's a cane or a seated cane, or a wheelchair that they thought they, because they technically had the ability to walk.
They're like, that's not for me. And it absolutely is for you. And accommodation is what brings your. Level of ability as close to the same level of ability without that somebody else has without, without that disability. So even within chronic fatigue, if a person without chronic fatigue or any [00:44:00] disabilities can walk five miles without getting outta breath and you can walk five feet before you're outta breath, then I promise you a mobility aid is a very helpful tool.
Um, and that would be really.
Matthew Reeves: that brings you closer to the same rich world that anybody else has access to. Uh, and that can be physically, emotionally, mentally, any, any. In any domain, um, that that's what I would start to define an accommodation as. And, uh, whether you believe you deserve that or whether other other people believe you deserve that is a complex question. more you believe you deserve that, the more you can advocate for yourself, uh, and, and say. why, why should I have less access to the same rich world that everybody else does? And if the answer to that is I, I've, if you, if you sit there and you go, well, I actually don't believe I have access to that, then there's some, maybe some deeper work to do.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: you, where did, where did those ideas come from? [00:45:00] Uh, and that's some of the, the most fulfilling work that I think you and I get to do is
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: figure out views on oneself. Um, that, cause us to, they give us. At the time, some pretty understandable reasons for limiting ourselves and, but
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yes. Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: don't have to be permanent.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: truly. And if you are working with a therapist who has those same underlying biases, it happens. That can also be really detrimental. Um. So I would, you know, be, uh, caution and, and you know, ask if you are looking for a therapist who specializes in chronic illness, but you are more on this, this disability lens of, um, of what it means to live with a chronic illness.
I would highly encourage using the word disability in your consult call with that therapist, because chronic illness can sometimes just have that connotation of you can heal this with. Herbs and thoughts, and, um, that's not what we're looking for here. We're looking for real life, real [00:46:00] world accommodations, and that if you ask a client, a, a therapist about disability and they start stumbling over their words or they don't know how to answer that question, then it just means they don't have that knowledge and you might want to keep searching if this is what you're looking for.
Matthew Reeves: Great advice. Great advice. Uh, we wrap up, I always like to make space if there's anything that you feel like this audience, uh, that you'd like for them to hear from you that maybe we haven't touched on. 'cause I feel like sometimes these conversations were so much shorter than they could be. but, but yeah.
Is there anything else that, that you want to offer as, as encouragement or, or insight that we haven't touched on?
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: I think we did a really good job actually of covering kind of everything from like grief to logistics, you know, accommodations and this work is complex and. I think it's important for people to remember that so that when it feels comp, sometimes when things feel complex, people go into like, oh, because I'm too much.
And it's like, no, the [00:47:00] world just isn't set up to easily deal with this. Um, you know, imagine like trying to use a cell phone before all the cell towers that we have now were up. Um, you, you wouldn't have thought your phone was bad. You would've understood that like there's five cell towers in the whole country.
So like. It, it's just not gonna get you that, that fast, quick contact anyone I want to now.
Matthew Reeves: What a great metaphor.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yeah. So it's, it's not you, it's, it's the environment around you and sometimes, you know, we have to, and then creativity is what got us, uh, cell towers on every block. Right. So let's be creative.
Matthew Reeves: and hard work
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Exactly.
Matthew Reeves: and money. Yeah. Uh, it, it, a lot of these resources or a lot of these accommodations are exceptions and not the rules because we as a society haven't yet, uh, placed our values in this case a lot of times money, uh, where. We say our values are, there's a [00:48:00] discrepancy between what we say and what we do, and a governmental standpoint and, and these sort of infrastructure systems.
I think calling that out and saying to people, I don't, I don't wanna hear what you say is valuable. Like, show me, put it in a budget. Budgets are moral documents,
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: It's true actually. Sometimes when people, when clients are really struggling to figure out their values, I'll tell them, go back through your bank statements for the last three months and see where you spent your money. That is where you currently are, Val, what you currently are valuing. We can change that if it doesn't feel good to you.
But that gives you really rich data because money is val. It is values.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, it may not be the only manifestation of values, but it's definitely a very tangible one that's very easy to look at. Uh, and it's a great starting point for asking those important questions. And then we do that societally as well. Uh, we do it the micro level and the macro level. So yeah, I think that's, that's a, that's great insight and, and it takes, uh, people who have [00:49:00] lived through this, um, and who have the insight into this. educating and scaffolding at that societal level as well to try and lift us all up and say, Hey, this is important. We say it's important, but let's make it important. I think that's some of the work that, that those of us who have been living in this space for a long time and who are not new and we're not at the beginning of that scaffolding process, um, that's some of the work that we can be doing.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Absolutely.
Matthew Reeves: is a lifelong journey. It's, it doesn't end as soon as you are over that most intense phase of grief
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Reeves: have your cane and you, you know, you have, you have your tools and you're living fairly comfortably. There's, there's more we can do to find a lot of richness and satisfaction by making change for others.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Absolutely.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Well, thank you so much for having me on. This was such a great conversation. I know. I really enjoyed it.
Matthew Reeves: Thank you, destiny. I really enjoyed it too, and I, I'm, I'm really privileged to, uh, have my world intersect [00:50:00] with your world on a pretty regular basis, and I'm
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Yes.
Matthew Reeves: for that. So thank you
Destiny Davis LPC CRC: Great.
Matthew Reeves: and, all right. All right. I'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye.
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OUTRO
Matthew Reeves: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Insight Out. You are the reason this podcast exists and we'd love to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. That's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. There, you can share your thoughts about today's conversation, suggest a topic for a future episode, or tell us about your experience living with vision loss. Again, that's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Insight Out is produced by Integral Mental Health Services, my private practice that offers psychotherapy for adults in Georgia [00:51:00] and disability adjustment and chronic illness counseling nationwide. Visit us at integralmhs.com and you can visit insightoutpod.com to catch up on all the episodes and to find links for subscribing in all the major podcast apps. A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube. Search for the channel, using the handle @inSightOutPod. You can also find us on social media using that same handle. I hope you'll join us for the next episode of inSight Out. Subscribe now in your favorite podcast app to stay connected. Thanks again for listening.