Navigating the Vocational Rehabilitation System with Janice Barrocas: Key Insights for the Vision Loss Community
One of the most dauting challenges facing someone living with low vision is building a fulfilling career. In the US, we have a system called Vocational Rehabilitation that exists to help blind and low vision adults obtain the skills and opportunities they need to work toward that goal. Today, we hear from Janice Barrocas, who has worked extensively both within the VR system and as an advocate for the clients they serve. You’ll learn her most valuable insights on navigating the VR system to decrease frustration and maximize results.
As someone who has personally navigated the vocational rehabilitation (VR) system as a client, I know firsthand how overwhelming and confusing it can be. That's why I was thrilled to sit down with Janice Barrocas, a licensed professional counselor and certified rehabilitation counselor with extensive experience both inside and outside the VR system, to demystify this crucial resource for our Insight Out podcast listeners.
Understanding the VR System: What It Is and Why It Exists
The vocational rehabilitation system exists for one primary purpose: to help people with disabilities prepare for, obtain, retain, and maintain employment. It's a federal-state partnership housed within the Department of Education, where the federal government historically provides about 80% of the funding while states contribute the remaining 20%.
What many people don't realize is that VR services are available in all 50 states, territories, and tribal lands. If you're an American with a disability that impacts your ability to work, you have access to this system. However, as Janice pointed out with her memorable "subject to availability" comparison to those old Ginsu knife commercials, the quality and accessibility of services can vary dramatically based on local resources and staffing.
The Reality of Limited Resources
One of the most important things Janice shared was the reality that there are significant shortages of qualified vision rehabilitation professionals. This means that while the infrastructure might exist on paper, the "boots on the ground" to provide hands-on training in Georgia's 159 counties (and similar rural areas across the country) often aren't available when and where they're needed most.
This isn't anyone's fault – VR counselors are tremendously overburdened with large caseloads, and the specialized professionals needed for vision-specific training are simply in short supply. Understanding this reality is crucial for managing expectations and developing effective self-advocacy strategies.
The Art of Self-Advocacy: Magic Words and Practical Strategies
Janice shared some invaluable "magic words" that can help move your case forward:
"I'm eager to move my case forward" – This signals to your counselor that you're ready and available for services, which is crucial since counselors naturally prioritize clients who can immediately engage with available resources.
"I want to work" – Even if you don't know what you want to do or what's possible, expressing this fundamental desire helps establish your employment goal, which is VR's primary mission.
But beyond magic words, Janice emphasized the importance of practical communication strategies:
Get your counselor's email address and make requests in writing
Be transparent about your availability and limitations
Follow up persistently but politely every 5-7 days if you don't get responses
Process your frustration offline before engaging in advocacy conversations
The Spectrum of Available Services
Many people don't realize the breadth of services VR can provide. These include:
Life Skills Training: Everything from cooking without sight to managing medications and handling household tasks. These might not seem directly job-related, but as Janice noted, "you aren't ever going to be job ready if you don't gain them either."
Orientation and Mobility Training: Learning to travel safely and independently as a non-driver, including white cane skills, navigation techniques, and using transportation apps.
Technology Training: Making your devices talk to you, accessing the internet, managing emails and text messages – all crucial for both daily life and employment.
Mental Health Support: Personal adjustment counseling specifically for blindness, though this is often treated as a "last resort" service (something Janice fundamentally disagrees with, and I do too).
Vocational Evaluation and Job Placement Services: Comprehensive assessments to identify your strengths and interests, plus support in finding and maintaining employment.
The Importance of the Stepping Stone Approach
One of Janice's most valuable insights was about the importance of "stepping stone" experiences. The expectation that someone can go from "zero to 60" – from newly traumatized and unemployed to working 40 hours a week – is unrealistic for most people.
Instead, she recommends building confidence through volunteer work or part-time commitments. This isn't about lowering expectations; it's about building the emotional confidence and problem-solving skills needed to handle the inevitable challenges that arise in any employment situation.
As Janice put it, true confidence isn't believing everything will go right – it's knowing you can handle it when things go wrong.
Becoming an Expert on Yourself
Perhaps the most crucial advice Janice offered was this: your success will be highly dependent on becoming an expert on yourself. This means:
Understanding what you need (even when that's hard to figure out in crisis)
Knowing what you're ready and able to do right now
Being honest about your limitations and timeline
Developing persistence and resilience in the face of systemic challenges
A Marathon, Not a Sprint
The VR process is lengthy and complex, especially for people with vision loss who need consistent, ongoing training rather than quick fixes. Janice emphasized treating this like a marathon rather than a sprint, maintaining stamina for the long haul while celebrating small victories along the way.
My Personal Takeaways
Having been through the VR system myself, I found Janice's insights both validating and illuminating. The frustrations are real – the system can be maddening, under-resourced, and poorly designed for the specific needs of people with vision loss. But it's also a crucial resource that can genuinely change lives when navigated effectively.
The key is understanding that asking for what you need is highly correlated with the likelihood of getting it. This isn't about being demanding or difficult; it's about being an effective self-advocate who understands how to work within an imperfect system.
Looking Forward
While we didn't dive deep into workplace accommodations and the Americans with Disabilities Act in this conversation, these are crucial parts of the employment puzzle that we'll explore in future episodes. The important thing to remember is that you're not alone in this journey – there are legal protections, systemic supports, and communities of people who understand what you're going through.
If you're considering reaching out to your state's VR agency, I encourage you to listen to our full conversation with Janice for more detailed strategies and insights. Remember, every person's journey with vision loss is different, but having a roadmap can make all the difference in reaching your destination.
To hear the complete interview with Janice Barrocas, listen to this episode of inSight Out wherever you get your podcasts. You can also leave us feedback or topic suggestions at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
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Licensed counselor and certified rehabilitation counselor Janice Barrocas shares insider strategies for successfully navigating the vocational rehabilitation (VR) system for people with vision loss. She explains how this federal-state program helps with employment preparation and reveals practical tips including “magic words” that help prioritize your case, the importance of written communication over phone calls, and how to build confidence before seeking full-time employment.
Janice covers the types of services available (orientation and mobility training, daily living skills, technology training, adjustment counseling for disability), the individualized employment plan process, and how to handle workplace challenges after getting hired. She emphasizes that effective self-advocacy and persistence are key to success in an under-resourced system where services are “subject to availability.”
Janice Barrocas (LOPC, CRC) provides personal adjustment to vision loss counseling through her practice Adjusting to Vision Loss. You can visit her website here: https://www.adjustingtovisionloss.com/
Topics covered: vocational rehabilitation (VR) system, vision loss employment, disability services, self-advocacy, orientation and mobility training, assistive technology, vision rehabilitation therapy, individualized employment plan, federal disability programs, state rehabilitation services, adjustment counseling, job placement, workplace accommodations, independent living skills
ABOUT THE PODCAST
inSight Out is your podcast home for living well with vision loss. Host Matthew Reeves (LPC CRC NCC) is a legally-blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor specializing in helping people thrive while living with disability. Matthew is licensed in Georgia and is a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor.
Please be sure to subscribe to catch every episode. And remember to share the show with others in the blind and low-vision community!
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©Integral Mental Health Services, LLC
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The following transcript is AI generated and likely contains errors.
[00:00:00]
COLD OPEN
Janice Barrocas: With adjustment to vision loss, I talk a lot with clients about this is, your success is gonna be highly dependent on becoming an expert on yourself. So you first, you know, clarifying what is it I need, which, it is much easier said than done, right? When you're dealing in crisis dealing with new, you know, sensory challenges and your life is, is really, you know, changed suddenly, um, or slowly over time with a progressive condition, how, how am I supposed to know what I need? Is what I hear from a lot of clients. They're like,
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Janice Barrocas: know where to begin. And that's, that's so, you know, understandable. Right? That's of course, that makes sense.
INTRO
Matthew Reeves: You're listening to Insight Out a podcast about living well with low vision. Maybe you're feeling [00:01:00] confused, scared, isolated, or disheartened about a recent vision loss diagnosis, or maybe you've been managing your vision loss for a while and now you want to hear from others about how to continue growing and thriving. Insight Out is your supportive space to find healthy and impactful tools to build and maintain a truly rich and gratifying life with low or no vision.
I'm Matthew Reeves. I'm a legally blind psychotherapist and rehabilitation counselor. I specialize in helping people adjust to disability through my practice, integral Mental Health Services in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm really glad you're listening.
Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and let others in the low vision community know about the podcast so the word can spread to those who might find it helpful. And now on with today's discussion.
TOPIC INTRO
Matthew Reeves: One of the most daunting challenges facing someone living with low vision is building a fulfilling career. In the US we have a system [00:02:00] called Vocational Rehabilitation or VR that exists to help blind and low vision adults obtain the skills and opportunities they need to reach towards that goal. Today we'll hear from Janice Barocas, who's worked extensively both inside the VR system and as an advocate for the clients they serve.
We'll learn her most valuable insights on navigating the VR system to decrease frustration and maximize results.
INTERVIEW
Matthew Reeves: All right. Thank you, Janice, for joining us. Uh, I've asked you to come here to talk about one of the most challenging topics in the world of Lovis, and that is career management and specifically, um, how people are using the vocational rehabilitation system, which is kind of a mouthful in into itself.
And a lot of people. Uh, are familiar with it and a lot of people aren't familiar with it, but you've got a lot of experience with it. So I was hoping you could spend some time helping people understand it and understand how to utilize it the best [00:03:00] they can, um, and what to expect through that experience.
So, uh, thank you for joining us and I think this is, uh, could be very useful for a lot of people. So thanks for being here.
Janice Barrocas: Sure, happy to.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. Um, why don't you get us started by giving us a bit of a picture of, um, what you do professionally and how it connects to the, to the vocation rehabilitation system and what your experience is with that.
Janice Barrocas: Sure. So I am a licensed professional counselor in Georgia, which I am state licensed to provide mental health services. Um, but the credential that's probably more relevant here is, um, my national certification as a rehabilitation counselor. vocational rehab state agencies, um, historically have. Liked to employ people with that, that credential because, um, it's a type of mental health background that really focuses on acquired disability, um, and [00:04:00] how, and there's a lot there, right? Um, that's a very big issue. And so helping people who've been, uh, living their lives one way and now have a really big adjustment to make, and who our mid-career takes, um, holistic skillset.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah. And what is your experience with the VR system specifically?
Janice Barrocas: So currently I am a contract provider of, um, something called Personal Adjustment Counseling to Blindness. Um, but right after I came outta graduate school, I. Um, I was on a long-term care training um, in, in graduate school at Mercer that was designed to create more qualified counselors in vocational rehab. And so one of the couple things we all agreed to do as part of getting that scholarship. One was do a, um, 600 hour internship vocational [00:05:00] rehabilitation. Um, and so that happened while we were still in grad school and then to work for two years in that same system when we came out.
Matthew Reeves: So you've got quite a lot of experience on the inside and it sounds like working with people, using it as clients or customers of that system.
Janice Barrocas: I should say. Yeah. And I went, it goes back even further than that.
Matthew Reeves: How so?
Janice Barrocas: in the nineties I worked for someone who I helped go through. I was on the, on the client advocacy side. I was working for a quadriplegic, single mom who was trying to go back to work. And so I was sort of, you know, doing it with her. We were tag teaming, what's it like to be a client? What do you ask for? And so I think having had the consumer. Experience. Um, although that wasn't about vision loss, um, it was very enlightening.
Matthew Reeves: Can you talk. About, or maybe go into a little more depth about, um, the purpose of the VR system and the [00:06:00] structure of it, and kind of give, paint a picture for us, if you can, about, uh, kind of what people will be engaging with, why it exists. Maybe if you know what the history of it kinda set, set some context for us so we can understand a little better.
Janice Barrocas: So in. The US IDEA is the big disability advocacy law that people are familiar with. It's for kids in K through 12 school systems. And so if you're a child coming through the system, you have a right to have your education. Uh. Essentially tailored and some accommodations made for whatever disability you might have. that right all stops when you come out of the K through 12 system. Um, so for people who have midlife vision loss, this wasn't ever an experience they had. They don't even know. There is such a thing. Um, but it's interesting. I think the reason that the vocational rehabilitation system, as we know it exists in the US Department of Education is because policymakers kind of saw it [00:07:00] as an extension of what happened with IDEA for kids coming up through, um, you know, K through 12 schools.
So it's not. In my opinion, not the greatest place to house a program that's really about labor and employment. Um, because educators of kids, right, may not know what they don't know, that's currently where it, where it lives.
Matthew Reeves: Okay, and its purpose is I. It sounds like it's employment specifically. It's, uh, it, it is not, it, it doesn't exist to address all the needs of, of people with disabilities.
Janice Barrocas: correct.
Matthew Reeves: It's specifically about employment, uh, challenges and, and finding employment. What is its goal in, in the world of employment specific?
Janice Barrocas: To help people prepare for, uh, obtain, retain, and maintain employment. And so any service that the taxpayer dollars that come through the vocational rehab system, [00:08:00] uh, funds are. Supposed to go toward directly one of those goals. They're supposed to be reasonably appropriate, necessary to either help you prepare for the job, obtain the job, retain the job, um, or if, if you're already employed, when you experience some sort of vision loss and you come to them, it's, it's considered, uh, what's called a job save. So maintaining your employment. Um, but the idea is not, you know, why this, why this comes up a lot with, with the clients. Um. we serve is because there's a lot of independent skills you need that are kind of the zero to one. You know, the preparatory stages to being ready to be a, an effective job searcher
Matthew Reeves: Gimme an example of that. What do you mean?
Janice Barrocas: uh. Cooking without looking how to get the technology talking to you. Um, how to use the iPhone or whatever kind of device you might be on. Um, smartphone to right. You know, read your text messages to you, [00:09:00] read your emails to you. Um, navigating transportation as a non-driver, um, you know, handling your laundry. Of getting the clothes clean, do they match? Um, am I gonna be wearing something that's, you know, I'm proud of, um, to present in a job interview? Like, do I know how to make lunch to take it to work when I get the job? All of those things are not really job readiness skills in, in the hard sense. Um, but you aren't ever going to be job ready if you don't gain them either. So
Matthew Reeves: So they're fair game for the VR system to help obtain those skills if you, if, if a person doesn't have them.
Janice Barrocas: They absolutely are. Um, it's also a very, compared with the other types of disabilities, I think that they serve at times where it's a three month window. We help people, you know, learn these specific things to tasks And how to dress for work and some soft skills and how to do the job application online. And maybe they have a six month, nine month [00:10:00] case with vr. They get a job. Right. They're employed. Case closed after 90 days. That's really not the experience of folks with vision loss who need a lot of, um, consistency, I should say. They don't just need those, those skills. They need consistency in the training to obtain them if they're really gonna have right.
An experience where they can retain it and benefit.
Matthew Reeves: And since this is a podcast specifically about vision loss, but we're talking about a program that's designed for disability in a broader sense. Can you talk about. What makes VR either tailored for vision loss or maybe in certain ways that it's not specifically tailored for vision loss and, and ways that it hits it in ways that it misses it.
Janice Barrocas: So the first thing to say, there is not all 50 states and or territories and, and tribal have the same model for delivering vocational rehabilitation services. Um, there's a lot of choices that the state gets to make about how we will [00:11:00] deliver this, what model to use. And about half the states use you know, it's, it's a two part system.
They have a commission for the blind. They have some sort of infrastructure that is strictly serving, um, visually impaired clients with vocational rehab needs. And then they have right, sort of what general population, everything else. Um, Georgia operates what's called a combined system, so we don't have specialty, you, know, organization. Deep Knowledge and, uh, a Commission of the Blind. Commission for the Blind, what we have is sort of a one-stop shop. Um, and of course we know one size does not fit all, so there's challenges with that.
Matthew Reeves: So you, you're referencing something that I wanted to, to ask about. We've, we've referred to this as both a federal program outta the Department of Education and also a state program. What's the relationship there? How do we understand that?[00:12:00]
Janice Barrocas: Federal government makes grants to the states. Um, I don't know if this is currently true based on today's politics, but I.
will
Matthew Reeves: I.
Janice Barrocas: at least historically it was an 80 20 funding split. So the federal government provided 80 cents on the dollar. Um, the state put up the other 20 cents to draw those. Funds down. Um, and, and so it was a federal, state program, but the lion's share of the dollars were coming, um, from Washington DC,
Matthew Reeves: Okay. And it's, and it exists in all states and, and territories and tribal lands. It, it, it exists in, if you're an American, you have access to the VR system.
Janice Barrocas: correct.
Matthew Reeves: Okay. Okay. Um, what has been, I'm gonna ask the, the million dollar question. What has been your experience in terms of satisfaction and success rate?
What, what, what can people expect when they first engage with the VR system [00:13:00] saying, Hey, I need some help in this area. What, what is the outcome?
Janice Barrocas: Like vision loss, it's very individualized, right? It's
Matthew Reeves: Okay.
Janice Barrocas: person. Um. Do you remember those commercials, uh, that said subject to availability?
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: You know, Ginsu Knives, they're great. They'll cut a tin can Or a or a peach. Um,
Matthew Reeves: Or a shoe.
Janice Barrocas: right. Or whatever it is you wanna cut, but only available.
Right? Subject to availability. And I think that's perhaps the piece that is, um, right in the fine print or, or unspoken when it comes to vocational rehabilitation. For folks who are blind or low vision, um, at least in the areas that I serve, there are huge shortages of the providers, the vision rehabilitation professionals that do this.
Hands-on training and education with adults. And so you can have a beautiful infrastructure and system, um, but ultimately a lot boils down to. [00:14:00] Whether, you know, you've got, um, right elbow grease, the manpower boots on the ground to go one of Georgia's 159 counties, um, and bring that education, you know, local to somebody who needs it.
And so there's a lot of holes in the net, if you will.
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha. How, what are the. Approaches or navigation skills that are useful for people with low vision. And I know your experience is in Georgia, so I, I hope this can apply more broadly. Um, but what are the, what are the approaches that somebody can take to maximize their outcomes, to maximize the chances that those resources will be allocated and allocated in a way that's truly helpful for them?
Janice Barrocas: With adjustment to vision loss, I talk a lot with clients about this is, your success is gonna be highly dependent [00:15:00] on becoming an expert on yourself. So you first, you know, clarifying what is it I need, which, it is much easier said than done, right? When you're dealing in crisis dealing with new, you know, sensory challenges and your life is, is really, you know, changed suddenly, um, or slowly over time with a progressive condition, how, how am I supposed to know what I need? Is what I hear from a lot of clients. They're like,
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Janice Barrocas: know where to begin. And that's, that's so, you know, understandable. Right?
That's of course, that makes sense. Um, but self-advocacy and persistence are probably the, the short answer to your question.
And, and then there's better and, and you know, worse ways, right? To, to do those things. Um, and I think frustration with not having your needs met and not feeling seen and heard makes effective self-advocacy particularly challenging for a lot of folks because [00:16:00] right, like you're getting no response.
You're not. Or you're getting responses that don't make sense. You called and said, hi, I'm blind and I need help applying. And they sent you a pile of paper in the mail and asked you to fill out forms and, and you know, it's just maddening, right? The client's like, what am I supposed to do with these?
Matthew Reeves: Yeah, that's a, that's one of those, if you don't laugh, you cry moments.
Janice Barrocas: Exactly. It's just, you know, and so not, not feeling understood right in that moment. Um. often, again, kind of going back to whoever's answering the phone or in charge of sending out this paperwork, may or may not have any orientation to the type of client they're supposed to be helping and accommodating here.
Matthew Reeves: So given that situation, that's a really good specific example. How would you guide one of your clients through how to respond to such a maddening situation? How do you turn that really frustrating moment into something that where you can move it [00:17:00] forward and, and start to achieve your goals?
Janice Barrocas: Processing the frustration first and foremost, um, offline from the advocacy conversation. Um, best practice there. Um. And if that's possible, some, some folks do not have anyone safe to process this with. So let me just say that again is easier said than done. but I'm a big fan of asking for someone's email address and making your request in writing. Um, in large part because having been a vocational rehab counselor, I know they are. Tremendously over overburdened. And they may get, you know, however many phone messages and voicemails a day, um, or text messages, right? And that stuff, you know, if it's not on the top of the pile, it's, it's gone. It vans. And so I often, um, will hear from someone, you know, I've called five times, you know, I'm getting nothing.
And I'm like, okay, so let's. Do you know the name of the person you're trying to reach? Alright, let's take [00:18:00] that and turn it into their email address. We know how the stem works for the state agency. They're all pretty much the same. First name dot last name,
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Janice Barrocas: um, you know, at the end. And let's craft an email. And depending on where they are, you know, with their learning technology skills, that sounds really intimidating, right? So I recognize that's not a small thing to do and we, we often talk through, okay, what are the choices? So you're not a computer user at this point. Okay, well what else we might work, you know, who can we recruit? Can we get your phone talking to you? Um, listening to you, uh, chat, GPT, whatever tools we can round up. A family member, an 18-year-old expert, whatever, um, and let's craft this language and very often what to say is a big barrier because. feels intimidating talking to a big state agency and so I.
do a lot of helping people like, you know, it doesn't have to be beautiful, just greeting Right.
name.
The three things you need, make it clear you're really eager to get moving [00:19:00] with your, you know, vocational rehabilitation goals. And ask them, might make a ask at the end, something with a question mark so that you're inviting a response, right? Be sure you include your phone number and a phone number where you will know if they called. That's another barrier. Right? Very often folks don't, can't see the icon on their flat screen phone anymore, so they have voicemails stacking up. They don't even know they're there.
Matthew Reeves: Oh yeah,
Janice Barrocas: have
Matthew Reeves: the phone rings when they're, yeah, if the phone rings, when you're not feeling the vibration, you'll never know. Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: Bingo. So we do a lot of talking about, you know, now that we've made this request, have somebody help you check your voicemails, right?
If that's something that's you're struggling with, um, every day or two, right? Treat this like a job. you've asked for a response. Let's monitor, you know, if it hasn't come in five, seven days, like, let's resend an email. Not an ugly one. Just a very polite you know, persistent one that says, following up on my email from last week. Right, and just [00:20:00] keep, you know, keep eating that drum. And I think people get discouraged because this is like, in crisis and they want help yesterday. What do you mean? I'm supposed to send an email a week and hope that somebody answers, but this, the truth is this is a professional right. Relationship you're trying to establish. So there's, Yeah. it may be slow.
Matthew Reeves: And, and in the midst of crisis, it's almost like inviting another crisis, like the, there's a, it's a crisis in as a response to a crisis. And it's often you're trying to use the very skills you're asking for training on, uh, like, which is, I think the word you used, maddening is incredibly appropriate, uh, given the, that sort of feedback loop of despair that can start to, to show up in, in cycles like that.
Uh, so I really appreciate how you were. Talking about the importance of processing that frustration, uh, 'cause that's a really valid emotion. It's an incredibly important thing to [00:21:00] say, yeah, I'm not going crazy. This is, this truly is maddening. Uh, and it's not my fault. I'm doing everything I can and these are the people who are supposed to be helping me and that, and they are under-resourced.
And I think that's an important topic. Full disclosure, I've been a client of vocational rehabilitation, so I've felt what you're talking about. Uh, and it's, it is easy. I am sure you know, you've been on both sides of it. It's easy to find yourself saying that the frustration is directed at the people who work at vr, and I know for sure that they have really good intention and they're under-resourced.
Almost always is that's the case. Can you speak to kind of what it's like to be working within that system? It might help us have more empathy and, and help us navigate the system better if we can understand it from the other side.
Janice Barrocas: My biggest takeaway on, on all of it, no matter where you know, you're coming into the [00:22:00] system or which side.
of the desk you're on, is trying to give people grace and recognize that don't know what they don't know. Right. So, very often it's, it's just. You know, do the next right thing is all you can do as the person with an exceedingly large caseload and only 40 hours in your week, and, you know, um, the ability to help everybody as their needs pop up is, is just not there.
Right? There has to be a queue, there has to be a line. Um, and the idea that I'm getting in a line when I'm having a crisis is not what any client wants to hear. On the other hand, think. Being able to understand and, and you said something really important, not take it personally when this right.
Isn't, um, the door's not swinging open right away,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: the first, first time you knock, or the second time or the third. And it's, especially if it is a [00:23:00] trauma trigger for people, right? This idea, I'm gonna just shut down. Nevermind, screw it. I feel safer, you know, not even engaging in this asking for help is hard. Hard, and that's essentially what this, this is. And so asking for help, getting to the point where you're able and willing and need to do that, and then having silence, you know, on the other end is just too much for some people. But you know, the truth is, there's magic words you can say that help it along.
And
Matthew Reeves: Oh,
Janice Barrocas: I've
Matthew Reeves: tell us the magic words. What are the magic words?
Janice Barrocas: you know, I think saying I'm eager to move my case forward, right? I am
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Janice Barrocas: Or is something that doesn't, um, nobody, you know, points out that a lot of people are coming into the system in crisis and they are not ready yet. Right. And they're, they're not eight, you know, for example, they're dealing with pressing medical issues.
They've still got, you know, they're juggling [00:24:00] three and four doctor's appointments a week, They may have figured out how to do the application and, and that's a huge feat. So. God bless anybody who got through the eligibility gaunt. Like, um, but the truth is, a lot of counselors have a mix of people on the, on their caseload who are on, you know, somewhere on those continuum of readiness.
Some are ready, you know, stat, right the second and some are six, eight months from being ready. And so the counselor doesn't know which one's which, unless you start, you know, to put your hand up and, say, you know, give them additional information to help them know. If you prioritize me right, this, you know, something's gonna happen in the next two months.
Like, I'm ready to start these appointments, right? I'm ready to show up at this training. Um, I'm focused, right? I'm not, you know, focused on my caregiving for my mother or my, you know, child right? Is in crisis. People's lives are busy and sometimes they don't realize, I called VR and I summoned the cavalry and they came and then, [00:25:00] It's not a good look to be too preoccupied with all of your other, you know, family caregiving or your own medical. gotta realize that that's, that does not, you know, project job readiness. Right. Employment readiness.
Matthew Reeves: I imagine, and I have not been on the other side of it, but I imagine that for when you're working within that system and you're a counselor trying to help a huge caseload, there's going to be a natural human tendency to put the resources where you can see movement. Like they're, you're, you're going to float your, your clients to the top of the list if they are expressing readiness and eagerness and, and you can see that you're, you're not just spinning your wheels.
So I can see why I'm eager is a magic word that could really make, make a difference.
Janice Barrocas: And you wanna do the most good for the most people.
Matthew Reeves: Right, right.
Janice Barrocas: You know, so putting 15 hours worth of effort into somebody who's eight or nine months from being able to attend the training that you're educating them about, [00:26:00] asking them to select, filling out paperwork for, you know, the paperwork process, just to get one service started as a counselor, um, is like a, you know, eight, 10 step thing. And so if I'm doing all of that, and then at the end of it. I learned this as a young, as a little counselor, you do all that and then somebody says, oh, but I'm gonna be outta town for the next six months.
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Janice Barrocas: We're Like really? Oh,
Matthew Reeves: all.
Janice Barrocas: mentioned that at the beginning.
Matthew Reeves: Right. Okay. So would you say that's also kind of, maybe not a magic word, but an important thing bear in mind is, is transparency about what you are ready and able to do and what you are not. In other words, are you, you are not shooting yourself in the foot to say, I, these are the things I can't do.
They, the counselor would rather hear that than not know that.
Janice Barrocas: I think that's, you're building trust, right? You
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Janice Barrocas: counselor to be able to trust you. You wanna be able to trust your counselor. That's a two-way street. it goes back to, you know, self knowledge is becoming an expert on [00:27:00] your own strengths and abilities and needs. And recognizing, I, I don't. have the ability to use the stuff they're lining up for me in the next six months, I won't even be home to receive the equipment. right. That's important.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: and telling somebody, being honest, I think builds, you know, the connection and the honesty it takes to have a good working relationship with that counselor.
Matthew Reeves: That's great. Great advice. Are there any other magic words we should know about?
Janice Barrocas: Well, obviously I want to work, right. I mean, I think that one of the, um. Things that was very common early, dealing with people early in their vision loss journey as, as a vocational rehab counselor was. People had no idea what they didn't think they could work.
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Janice Barrocas: They didn't know yet what was possible. And so sometimes, you know, getting out the, words, I wanna work, when you question your, you have self-doubt there about what can I do now, right.
That my [00:28:00] vision's changed. That's tricky. I mean, that's really tricky because sometimes people feel it yet. And I think recognizing it's, it's a journey, right? And there will be a lot of exploration and a lot of skills and, and learning to be a confident, visually impaired person, presenting yourself in a job interview sounds scary. does. I get it.
Matthew Reeves: And so the the takeaway I'm hearing is that the VR system, they're, they don't, while they are focused on getting you a job, they don't just jump in at the point where you are ready to apply for a job. So to say I want to work is not the same thing as saying, I know how to work or I know what I can do. It is saying, I want to work, I want to be employed now.
Help me get from wherever I am to that place.
Janice Barrocas: Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Matthew Reeves: that's, that's their function. So we don't have to be afraid of not knowing the answers to questions.[00:29:00]
Janice Barrocas: Correct. But I think instinctively, you know, I think society has given us the message, um, that we should know, but shooting on yourself is not helpful in this case
Matthew Reeves: Right. Right, right. So once you're in the system. What are the kinds of resources that are available? What can somebody with a vision impairment, uh, you said earlier like, I don't know what, I don't know. I don't even know what to ask for. What are the categories of things that should be considered when you are making those initial requests?
Janice Barrocas: Well. My approach is, was then and still is. Talk to me about what you're trying to do. Right. What was your biggest pain point today? know, I burned breakfast. Okay,
Matthew Reeves: Okay.
Janice Barrocas: talk about that. Um, or, you know, I am having this, whatever your just real time problems that need solved. because I think number one, it gives you people really feel some relief quickly if you solve the problem that's just right in front of us.
And it's [00:30:00] also just, uh. Uh, it makes sense. You know, it's a low hanging fruit. Um, and the universe of all the assistive technology and all of the training that's available a lot of jargon and a lot of vocabulary words that are foreign to the average. You know, if I got 10 neighbors out here and said, have you ever heard these, um, specialties?
They would all go, what? No. You know, so how to keep the, uh. factor low. And just, let's start with relatable thing. Problems you need solved. I'm trying to do my online banking and now I can't see this fine print. This isn't working for me. My bills are going unpaid. Right? Sometimes that's the first thing, um, you know, out of a client's mouth.
And while helping someone pay their bills online doesn't seem like it's directly related to employment. Homelessness does not facilitate the stability that is required for employment either.
Matthew Reeves: And making that point is part of self-advocacy is to [00:31:00] say, yeah, this, this is impacting my, my employability because my life is unstable and we gotta stabilize things before we're even talking about job interviews, much less maintaining a job.
Janice Barrocas: correct.
Matthew Reeves: Gotcha, gotcha. So, so life skills and kind of those really fundamental ways to adapt to vision loss and just keeping the boat afloat is an early stage and a, and a crucially important stage that VR can help with.
Once those are. I guess that's never entirely completed. It's not really about a destination. It's more about a journey, I suppose. But once, once you have enough stability to start looking to the next phase. What's v's role there?
Janice Barrocas: Well, so. There's a written plan. It's called a individualized plan for employment, which is, I'll just call a work plan because it's one less acronym.
Matthew Reeves: [00:32:00] I.
Janice Barrocas: you know, the work plan that you and your vocational rehab counselor craft together is the written documents, kind of the roadmap. It's, it's a legally binding contract for what services they'll provide and how many and how often.
And, and so what goes on that plan. Um. It determines how your, your preparation will look. Um, there's, I should say a, a huge disparity in, you know, understanding of what can go on the plan. Um, and clients again, are not going to, to have an idea right out of the bat, um, showing up, but. The basics, things that, you know, terms of art that you would probably want to know to consider.
Am I.
am I ready for that? your world gets really small when your vision changes and things feel unsafe, and so a lot of withdrawing, social isolation is partly due to lack of transportation. And so orientation and [00:33:00] mobility training, um, is Right.
the, the type of vision, rehabilitation, specialty that. Send somebody to your house or brings you to a training center and helps you learn, Right,
orientation, white cane, travel skills, planning, how to get from point A to point B as a non-driver and all of the things that go with it. Um, in this day and age, there's so many apps and technology, I mean, things coming out every single day that, that make that easier.
But the core skills are the same. And so, you know, getting right rather. A lot of people, as I meet them in the counseling arena now have one of their biggest, um, frustrations and, and loss of independence issues is I don't get to go anywhere alone anymore.
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Janice Barrocas: 'cause I don't have right. The comfort level, it's, you know, it's dangerous, it's scary, and, and of course it is. Um, so that's usually right. Have you Right. Had any orientation, mobility training is my next question. And they, you know. [00:34:00] Are silent and then I, I back up with with a white cane who can teach you a little bit about how to use it right. And take you out, give you an opportunity to, you know, get comfortable with curb cuts, right?
Get comfortable with street crossings. Um, how to find your way in a grocery store that's unfamiliar, or the one that you've always shopped at, either one. Um, right. Just getting, you know. The confidence, right, the hard
Matthew Reeves: Right,
Janice Barrocas: the, the emotional confidence to reengage. Um, and so
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: usually a first order of business and some technology training, because digital, you know, anxiety is, is a huge factor.
Now, we, you can't make your phone, you know, or your and or computer, help you access the world, you're not, you know, you will be isolated, right? You're not going to be able to access the help you need.
Matthew Reeves: So we've got life skills, we've got orientation and mobility, which I guess would fall into sort of more of that independence. Um, [00:35:00] framework and then the technology, which I guess really all of this is about independence. So far. I'm, I'm realizing that as I say it, uh, but the technology is also about, you know, getting communication in and out, um, and understanding how to connect with the world, uh, and, and even figuring out what opportunities are available from an employment standpoint.
But that, but those skills are broader than employment. Like all of these skills. Are usable in the realm of getting employment, but they're also applicable in much, in much broader areas to make life better. Uh, so it's not, while vrs goal is employment, the skills you can get from vr, uh, can be applied in much and in lots of other ways as well.
That's, it's kind of, I hadn't thought about it in that term, in those terms before.
Janice Barrocas: Instrumental activities of daily living is kind of the jargon there,
Matthew Reeves: Uh huh.
Janice Barrocas: you need to be able to do to keep, you know, the [00:36:00] lights on at home and function. Um, and so Right.
cooking, um, being able to manage your own medicine, being able to, you know, handle your own household, cleaning, laundry, um, getting, you know, groceries in. Those are things, um, that sort of fall under a different specialty. Um, vision rehabilitation therapists, right. Um, VTS certified vision rehab therapists are typically the instructors that bring that skillset. And I think right away who anyone listening to this is caught on. You mean I need three different specialists to teach me the basic things?
I, that's right. What's wrong with this picture? And I think that's part of. The point to make, it's overwhelming. Just
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Janice Barrocas: there's so much to learn and the instructors, um, don't, you don't get one person who comes to the door and rolls out, you know, uh, hours, 15 hours of training, and then you leave fully equipped.
It's just, it's not that simple. [00:37:00]
Matthew Reeves: So you have to learn the system that teaches you how to navigate a different system, but you have to start somewhere and. To your point, the starting, the starting is the self-advocacy and saying, Hey, I need some help. And there's, and that takes a lot of courage and a lot of strength to do, just to pick up the phone the first time.
Janice Barrocas: and it often requires somebody to be the sighted assistance to
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Janice Barrocas: government agency phone number or address or email, right. That's I've often had people say to me that this is a hidden program. Um, how come I had never heard of this. I'd never heard of you guys. Um, I waited for years on, sort of on my couch.
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Janice Barrocas: even know who to call. And, and I think this is part of the problem, right? Because not part of the medical system. That of, you know, people that diagnosed you. Right? And so, but the time between diagnosis and [00:38:00] referral to vision, rehabilitation and intervention, right? Getting some real help have a lot to do with how you fare mental health wise that timeframe.
And so, um, recognizing that the, you know, the people in the white coats, the doctors who are trained, um, to. Treat and cure eye disease, when they've reached the end of what they can do, they don't actually, you know, there is no bridge that takes the patient straight over into the world of vision rehabilitation and a warm handoff to the, all these specialties that we're talking about here. Um, that's, so, it is in some respects a hidden, program, hidden specialty because people, how would they even know to look for it?
Matthew Reeves: Most people have never heard of VR until their life changes dramatically and they need it, but it's, yeah,
Janice Barrocas: And that may take a minute.
Matthew Reeves: of course. Yeah. You mentioned the, um, the emotional impact, and I know that's a lot of what you [00:39:00] do as a, uh, contractor with the vocational rehabilitation service or the agency. And can I take that to mean that one of the things that you can ask for as a client of VR is some mental health help, if that's, if that's impacting your employment prospects.
Janice Barrocas: Yes it is. Absolutely. You can get a line item for a service in a dollar amount, you know, certain number of units. Um, that the cost of adjustment counseling for, for blindness. I think every state frames this a little differently. Um, Georgia's policy technically right now says that Adjustment counseling for blindness is a last resort service, which I fundamentally disagree with, uh, that when other services and other learning are not happening as expected. That you then look at why, and then there's counseling [00:40:00] available. Um, I mean, everything we know about the social trauma and the physical trauma that is being told right, that you're going to lose your eyesight tells me that health support on the front end would, would be really advantageous for anyone, right?
With this kind of, you know, really shocking new information to digest. But other states, you know, do it a little bit differently. Um, there's not a whole lot of mental health counselors that work in this space who know and who right are, um, CRCs or LPCs, licensed professional counselors or certified rehabilitation counselors. And so while you can ask for it, again, subject to availability is probably, uh, often, you know, there will not be resources.
Matthew Reeves: That's the rules of the road subject to availability. Which is unfortunate. We wanna, we, and that's part of [00:41:00] self-advocacy as well, is talking to the powers that be at both the federal and state level and saying, Hey, this is under-resourced. Let's fix it. Um, that's hard to do when you're in the middle of crisis, but for those that are listening that have maybe been through it, uh, I would encourage some advocacy on that, on that front as to increase the resources.
Um, do you have any thoughts on, from a. Broader social landscape and political landscape, like what the advantages to having a VR system and a robust VR system are. Why is it good for us as a whole?
Janice Barrocas: Well, financial self-sufficiency is, I mean, good for everybody, right? People wanna be tax paying as citizens. They, the self-worth and the self-esteem that comes from, contributing and being right valued as an employee in whatever world or small business owner in whatever, um, feel [00:42:00] you, you know, find yourself in being a parent who's got the ability to be an earner, right?
Makes the children that much better off down the line, um, access to healthcare, right? While, while a lot of folks. We will get Medicare if they get Social Security disability. Um, that takes 24 months to kick in typically, and that's from the time you've got approved for Social Security Disability, which is often a long journey, with a lot of waiting and, you know, if you could find yourself employment that has health insurance attached to it. Right. That's non ocular health conditions and your ocular health conditions are gonna get better attention sooner. So it's a rising tide that lifts all boats.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: but it is complicated. I, I just, I acknowledge that this is, there's a lot of steps to making it work.
Matthew Reeves: For sure. Yeah. So we've covered the basic life skills, the activities of daily living. We've talked about, uh, orientation and [00:43:00] mobility. We've talked about technology. What happened where, when we get to the point of saying, okay, we've got all these things reasonably well in hand. Now let's talk about an actual job.
What is that? Paint a picture for what that process is like. And I know it's different for everybody, but maybe in broad strokes.
Janice Barrocas: There's so, so much there. Um, so the. Well, I'll share another bit of jargon so that you know, this is something you can ask for on your plan,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: comprehensive vocational evaluation is a very specialized kind of assessment of your strengths and your skills and your abilities, and the. That is something that vocational rehab can hire somebody to offer you and spend some time with you.
There are people who offer it in braille. If you're a braille reader, there are people who offer it. Right. Uh, use the Mccarin dial or other devices that are normed on people with vision loss. Um, if you're not sure what, [00:44:00] you know, what you wanna be when you grow up and
Matthew Reeves: Excuse me,
Janice Barrocas: vocational rehab
Matthew Reeves: even if you are grown up.
Janice Barrocas: Exactly. I'm 53. I'm still not sure. Um, it's. It's, it's a tool, right? And I think knowing that a vocational evaluation, um, is available might be something people weren't aware of. So, um, there's that, you know, trial work experiences and, and frankly, a lot of those of us who work in, in Georgia in this area tend to spend a lot of time encouraging people to take stepping stone jobs. Whether that's volunteer work at, you know, organization that's near and dear to your heart, or the library down the street. I think the idea that you're gonna go from zero to 60, from having been traumatized, newly blind and unemployed for however many years to being a 40 hour a week employee, um, is. in most people's case, right? They're gonna need to switch fields, often be retrained, learn a whole lot of new things. I think just the like, can I, you [00:45:00] know, mobilize to get out three days a week, you know, for a nine to, you know, three commitment at the local, whatever. You know, I'll just pick a animal shelter for lack of better things,
Matthew Reeves: Okay.
Janice Barrocas: the front desk and to greet people, you know? I think part of that is the rebuilding of the confidence and so. This is the mental health piece as opposed to the hard skills, right? You need to believe that you can do it
Matthew Reeves: Mm-hmm.
Janice Barrocas: you try to go out there and sell yourself to employers. Um, and so that has to, that builds over time. That's not gonna happen once and done. You're gonna need to have a series of, you know, experiences. I have to figure out how to get there, I have to navigate these transportation challenges. Am I using rideshare? Can I get this app on my phone? Can I figure out how to connect it to my credit card?
Does it work when I get the Rideshare driver to show up? Do they, you know, can I even connect with the car that I can't see?
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Janice Barrocas: like I think the fear of, oh [00:46:00] my, that's just overwhelming, will keep people on the sidelines. And so they need to have some experiences over time while they still have the support of this whole team of instructors and, and someone like myself around them, so that if something goes sideways. It's not, you know, game over.
Matthew Reeves: Right. It's not the end of the world and it's not black and white. I, as you were describing that, I had a memory from my own life, uh, and it kind of goes along with the. The honesty and the transparency you brought up with the subject to availability. Right. This was that. Like, let's be realistic. Um, I'm remembering when I was diagnosed as a kid, uh, I was, I look back and I'm grateful that, no, that my parents never said, oh, you can do anything.
Right. I can't be a commercial pilot and be legally blind at the same time. Right. There are things I can't do, and I think it's very easy when you've been traumatized, uh, which vision loss is very often traumatizing, uh, [00:47:00] to, to go into black and white mode. Where if you say, oh, that there's some things I can't do, then there's nothing I can do.
And I'm, I I'm hearing you say that it's a process to start saying. You know, it's okay that there's a list of things that are unavailable to me, but even though I don't know what's on that list, there is a list of things that are available to me and I can ask for the help to try and figure out what those things are.
And I may really enjoy some of those things. Like, ideally we want to help people get jobs that they like that are very fulfilling.
Janice Barrocas: Yes.
Matthew Reeves: what they've dreamed of since they were a child, if they. You know, had normal vision as a child, maybe, maybe, uh, there are some things that are unavailable, but that doesn't mean they can't have a rich, fulfilling, enjoyable vocation and career.
Janice Barrocas: And first we've gotta conquer some fears to get out there.
Matthew Reeves: Right?
Janice Barrocas: that's the, uh, I think of it like an on ramp up on an interstate, right? We, we gotta do this. There's a, a gradual acceleration lane or
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.[00:48:00]
Janice Barrocas: lane when you're coming off
Matthew Reeves: I.
Janice Barrocas: because you can't go or. Right. You know, in Atlanta, right?
If on 2 85, if all the cars are going 85 miles an hour, you don't come out right going that fast. It's, it's just, it takes as long as it takes. And that's part of recognizing there's anxiety, there's depression, right? And those things can become emotional barriers. So to use the example of if, right, if you had a big disappointment or, um. An embarrassing situation, for example, right? Uh, where you're like, I can't believe I did that, or I can't believe that guy didn't come to my door. He, he said he came and he, I never knew he was there, and then he left, and now I'm late for, you know, my commitment,
Matthew Reeves: Right.
Janice Barrocas: Right. I think a lot of people, uh, fear that they won't be able to keep up their end of the bargain with time sensitive commitments.
I hear that a lot with clients. Um, I can't go to work because I can't guarantee I'll be there on time. So that's a, that's a fear, you know, and, and that's realistic. [00:49:00] What can we, right, what are the choices here? What can we do to address that? And it have a plan a, plan B and a plan C, and the ride shares, not, not all three, um, potentially, but, but being able to. Go through those experiences in low stakes employment, like volunteer roles where you're unpaid and have, get some confidence under your belt and have a few wins, and have some learning curve. You know, some experiences that didn't go as expected that we then, you know, didn't repeat. Right? We recognized, oh, here's what I did there.
Here's what didn't work. Okay, let me do it differently next time. And that all Part of the exploration process of finding, you know, getting out of your comfort zone as a job seeker with less vision. And it's also precursor stuff to, you know, the, what do I wanna do when I grow up? Can I just get there on time and get my way to the office?
Building is a big logistical question
Matthew Reeves: Daunting.
Janice Barrocas: answered.
Matthew Reeves: Right, right. [00:50:00] Yeah. I, the, the confidence you're speaking of is not confidence that everything's going. To go. Right. It's confidence that you can handle it when things go wrong.
Janice Barrocas: Bingo. Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: Yeah.
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: I, I would also say that we've, society has, um, not prepared us well for this kind of ongoing problem solving, and it feels unfair and shutting down or getting angry or both, uh, very often are the emotional response when a couple of these things don't go as expected in a row. Um. Right.
And how, how do we, what's the resilience factor? How do we build in more protective factors so that people don't crash or go off an emotional cliff? Um, when one of these things, uh, doesn't go as expected and, and believe that just 'cause it happened this time doesn't mean it's gonna happen again. 'cause I'm gonna do something differently.
That's what I'm planning.
Matthew Reeves: learn from this. Yeah. And gain, perhaps gain a new skill. Um, [00:51:00] once somebody's in a job. You were talking about, um, resilience to disappointment or mistakes. I'm wondering about like how, how does the VR system view and how with. Fits that maybe aren't going well or just aren't right, or if something's, if something is disappointing, how, how, how does VR get involved and, and try and turn something negative into something more positive?
Janice Barrocas: I'm not sure that they're well suited for that type of intervention,
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Janice Barrocas: um, in my experience. And I would, I don't pretend to know how it works, you know, in the rest of the country, but, um, I. That is typically not gonna be your VR counselor, it's gonna be somebody who has more, right? Maybe a certified vision rehabilitation therapist or a technology instructor. because often what is not working well is the company that you hired on with now has some proprietary software [00:52:00] system that doesn't work with jaws. That, that one happens a lot. Um,
Matthew Reeves: The screen reader software just for clarity.
Janice Barrocas: yes. So your screen Reader software, which you're very proficient at now. After VR is funded, you know, whatever, 18 months of training, you get hired and nobody, you know, at this enterprise, big enterprise organization has ever used jaws.
So they don't know if the screen reading software is actually compatible. And now you're six, eight weeks into your employment and you're realizing the problem, right? And it's this. T terror for you as the new employee who's really trying, you know, to show up, be capable, you know, put your best foot forward. so that often is, you know, reaching back out to the person who did, did your technology training or get some task analysis from a vocational contractor who teaches rehab, you know, therapy to go in and figure out, okay, what are the tasks associated with this aspect of your job? How do we break 'em down and get somebody in here to train you to teach you? On the [00:53:00] ones that are not going smoothly for you and It's, but I think there's also a real embarrassment at needing that kind of assistance on the job. That can be a barrier for the new hire, right? Who just wants to fit in and blend in and not
Matthew Reeves: Sure.
Janice Barrocas: out as, as needing all this gadgets and gizmos and tech staff.
I mean, no one wants to show up with an entourage at their new job. Um. Okay.
Matthew Reeves: What do you say to that person who's feeling that way?
Janice Barrocas: you've got choices, right? Let's, let's talk about your choices. I think if they feel more in control of the choice, whether it's I'm just gonna quit, nevermind. This is too much. I can't be bothered. This was a mistake, right? Yeah, absolutely. One of your choices is to, you know, resign, right? Or what else, what other choices, right? What kind of accommodations can we ask for? What kind of additional training and expertise? Might we bring in what and other things we haven't thought of yet. Right. Are you a [00:54:00] meta glasses user? Is this something, you know, that we can get your meta glasses involved with? Um, you know, there's a lot of ways, but I think when you're. In the panic of, oh my God, I'm not gonna succeed at this. Right? constriction in your body and in your stomach, you know, all of just the fight or flight response that kicks into gear, makes access to rational thought and that methodical problem solving. Out of reach because you're in the, oh my God, this isn't gonna work.
I've, I've worked so hard, I finally got the offer I finally got, and now, you know, I'm around this, um right. Unforeseeable problem. And so I think just having, you know, sounding board of somebody who understands, you know, supports you unconditionally. I mean, I don't have any opinion on whether you should stay in this job or go to HR and say. You know, move me please. Or, or do another thing. It doesn't, but you've got choices, you know, and so let's not jump Two, don't react quite yet. Let's respond.[00:55:00]
Matthew Reeves: Right. Yeah. I love that. Don't react. Respond. Yeah. And one thing we haven't talked about today, and, and it's not the time. Topic for today. But one of the things that people have, uh, in their corner is the Americans with Disabilities Act. They're not alone. There are some,
Janice Barrocas: I.
Matthew Reeves: uh, legal, uh, obligations that, that certain employers have, and they are fuzzy.
Uh, and I'm sure we'll do an episode on that to understand that better. Uh, but we have, as a society said that public spaces should be accessible. For the people with disabilities, and we require that to one degree or another in different situations and in different contexts. It gets complicated. But, um, you're not alone in that sense.
Our society has said, you deserve it. You deserve something. Uh, so you're not, you're not all by yourself in that, uh, if you are feeling, uh, demoralized or scared, it's a very reasonable thing to be feeling. It's a hard thing you're going through, so. Yeah. Is there anything else we haven't [00:56:00] covered that you feel like is important for people who are, um, navigating the, the vocational rehabilitation system to know,
Janice Barrocas: You know, I think the main thing is. Asking for what you need is highly correlated to the likelihood that you'll get it.
Matthew Reeves: Hmm.
Janice Barrocas: so even if you've heard,
Matthew Reeves: I.
Janice Barrocas: know, whatever bad outcomes, dismal, you know, stories from, from other people, um, in your same community or people who've, you know, got your same, um, set of circumstances very often, right?
How you show up is the one thing you can control in the vocational rehabilitation process. And so. Asking, you know, for what you need, how you ask, and what the substance of that request is. And considering this a marathon, not a sprint, um,
Matthew Reeves: Yeah.
Janice Barrocas: Stick, stick with your ask. Um, if you're not being heard, right, how do you refine your question?
Right? [00:57:00] What's, you know, it's, it doesn't need to escalate it to somebody's supervisor, you know, in a huff necessarily. It's just right If the phone calls aren't getting it. All right, what else can we try? It's, it's the problem solving skillset. Um, and how to have the stamina to stay the course with that and keep showing up for it. Uh, and keep asking for what you need, I think is the, you know, it's the secret sauce if there is one. and believing in the fact that, right, I'm, I can be proud of the fact that I'm self advocating. I'm not being a pest, right? This is, this is what it takes. And, um. you're showing up for yourself, so keep keep with it.
Matthew Reeves: That's great. Well, thank you for helping the people, the audience, listening to this understand a little more, uh, so that they don't have that, I don't know what I don't know, quandary. Um, the more we learn, the more we can advocate for ourselves is very difficult to ask [00:58:00] for something that we doesn't don't know exists.
Uh, so thanks for helping fill in some of those gaps. I really appreciate you being here.
Janice Barrocas: Absolutely. Glad to.
Matthew Reeves: All right. Of course. All right. Thanks again. Bye-bye.
Janice Barrocas: All right. Take good care.
RECAP
Matthew Reeves: It is refreshing and impactful to hear such a transparent and realistic perspective on navigating what can often be a difficult system when you're trying to get the resources you need for a stable and enjoyable career. My thanks to Janice for the work she does and for offering her insight today. You can find Janice online at adjustingtovisionloss.com. If you'd like to get in touch with your state's vocational rehabilitation agency. You can start by visiting the website for the Rehabilitation Services Administration at rsa.ed.gov. On their homepage, you'll find a link to a list of all the VR agencies nationwide.
OUTRO
Matthew Reeves: Thanks for joining us for this [00:59:00] episode of Insight Out. You are the reason this podcast exists and we'd love to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message at speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. That's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod. There, you can share your thoughts about today's conversation, suggest a topic for a future episode, or tell us about your experience living with vision loss. Again, that's speakpipe.com/insightoutpod.
Insight Out is produced by Integral Mental Health Services, my private practice in Atlanta, Georgia that offers psychotherapy for adults in Georgia and chronic illness and disability counseling nationwide. Visit us at integralmhs.com and you can visit insightoutpod.com to catch up on all the episodes. [01:00:00] You can also find us on social media using the handle @insightoutpod. I hope you'll join me for the next episode of Insight Out. Subscribe now in your favorite podcast app to stay connected. Thanks again for listening.